Mr. MACLEAN (York):

No, what I am anxious for is to see the greatest mining country in the world preserved for the National Railways. When the National line is up there it ought to have the opportunity to secure the traffic. Let me tell my hon. friend something. The National Railways get out a magazine every month which is distributed among their employees. In this is a little card asking the reader-who of course is an employee of the company

if he knows of any traffic that it is possible to get in his district, and if he does, to send to the head office a post card containing the information. That shows how anxious they are to get freight. They should be equally anxious to secure the railways that are going to develop the northern country. My contention is that the Canadian National should own the line from Amos right through Rouyn to Cheminis on the Temiskaming and Northern Ontario at the interprovincial line, through the Kirkland Lake gold field to Swastika, then north to Earlton Junction. Then west to the present terminal at Elk Lake, then on via Gowganda and Shining Tree to Wfestree on the Sudbury line, opening up the richest area in Quebec and Ontario of copper, gold, silver and gold again. That is the greatest series of lines through a mining country that I know of, and they can all be combined in one. That would be a profitable route and would give the Canadian National complete control of the territory. We have got the whole northern country now practically outside of the Canadian Pacific, that is at all profitable. I do not want to see any unnecessary rush in building railways. I do not know why parliament should let these other people go ahead before the National Railways have a chance at it. Of course the Minister of Railways says the Canadian National Railways have no present interest in the matter. Certainly not if the method is continued which has been followed in connection with the development of the Rouyn field, that is, to allow a local company to get a charter, issue securities to build a road, and then sell out at a great ad-

Red Lake Railway Company

vance to the Canadian National Railways. The principle I have indicated is the general principle I have laid down here. If you grant the present request it will not be long before other people will be asking for charters for the construction of small lines to serve the mining country in Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba.

'Mr. MoGIBBON: May I ask the hon. member piloting this 'bill through the House, who is responsible for the clauses respecting the water powers it is hoped to acquire?

Mr. MACLEAN (York):

What is the total distance north and west?

Mr. MACLEAN (York):

How many miles will it run?

Mr. MACLEAN (York):

I was in the committee room when this bill came up to-day, and to my mind this is an exploitation company to get a charter which may hereafter become valuable. Not only does the bill ask for power to construct 100 miles of railway into Red Lake, but it asks for further power to go as far as The Pas, many miles northwest, and eventually become a new transcontinental line paralleling our two transcontinental lines across this continent. The Deputy Minister of Railways was present at the committee to-day and in reply to me he said that the department had no objection to it; but on behalf of the National Railways, although only a humble member of this House, I object to this free chartering of companies that are mainly for the purpose

Red Lake Railway Company

of exploitation, especially when, as was stated to-day, those who are asking for the charter are residents of the United States.

I think the time has arrived when the Minister of Railways should say whether he is willing to assume the responsibility of creating companies that are practically schemes for exploitation. It develops to-day that this is really in opposition to a parallel railway into which we are putting $3,000,000 now and into which we shall have to put $16,000,000 or $20,000,000 later on. Not only does it parallel that road to The Pas, but eventually if it means anything its object is to be another transcontinental railway in this country. The trouble in Canada is this over-duplication in regard to railways, and we are continuing in the same course. What we want to do is to get rid of these duplications. If a mining territory must be served with railways we ought to keep that for the National Railway system in preference to encouraging the construction of new railways. I have put in and I will continue to put in my protest hereafter against any schemes for railway construction for which good reasons cannot be given.

There may be a gold field there-I hope there is-but if there is, it is contiguous to the Canadian National Railways and the best way to get to it- is by the Canadian National. If the people there want to get a road they ought to go to the Canadian National and ask them to serve them by a line from their main line to this new gold field. Again I protest against this continuation of indiscriminately chartering new railroads that are to be subjects hereafter of trouble and expense to the Canadian National or the Canadian Pacific, and that are mainly promoted by those who are called dealers in charters or schemes that will eventually be a tax upon the people of this country.

Mr. W. F. MACLEAN (South York):

Mr. Speaker, as a protectionist I have been very much impressed by the statement made by the right hon. leader of the opposition (Mr. Meighen) this afternoon that he and his friends would do what they could to support the government in applying a remedy to this situation. Let me suggest to the House what may prove to be a practical solution. Public ownership as applied in the province of Ontario to the distribution of power and light is of its kind one of the most marvellous enterprises I know of on the American continent. It is a great financial success, and to-day I am glad to say it has excited the envy of private enterprises competing against it.

Now, to my mind what Nova Scotia ought to do as a way out of this trouble is to handle the problem by way of public ownership- pool the leading mines, devote them to the production of electric energy near the pitheads and distribute that energy all over 9 p.m. the province for power and light, and ship the balance of the product of those mines to Quebec and Ontario for fuel. In this way the coal industry of Nova Scotia would be put on its feet, it would supply power and light for the province, and it would also supply fuel for Ontario and Quebec.

Now then, if the steel industry of Nova Scotia had the assurance of coal at cost, or very nearly at cost, produced from the pick of the mines that had been pooled, that of itself would be an encouragement to that industry. Then if the company had to be reorganized, capital would be forthcoming for the reconstruction of the steel industry. That is what we want to see. If they can have, as they have, a great steel industry in the United States, I say we can have a great steel

Dominion Iron and Steel

industry in this country. Evidence came out this afternoon that to-day the Americans are the greatest producers of steel at the cheapest price, and they sell it all over the world. They are the most protectionist country on the face of the globe.

Now, Mr. Speaker, by adopting this western principle of pooling the best of the coal mines in Nova Scotia we would get coal almost at cost; the coal industry would flourish, and it would enable us to insist that the men who work the mines get decent pay and decent houses to live in. That is another progressive idea, but it is worth while considering. This summer if we are to have a commission investigate the industries of the Maritime provinces, I should like to see it take up the coal and steel industries on the lines I have suggested. I am, of course, only stating it crudely to-night, but I am confident that in my suggestion there is contained the key to the solution of some of these Maritime grievances, for it will enable the miners to be paid good wages, and by the establishment of coking plants in Ontario and Quebec we can handle the coal of Nova Scotia, supply the fuel wants of the central provinces and get the advantage of all the by-products incident to the coking process. That will open a new vista for the people in the Maritime provinces. I am not going to take up any more time, but I just throw that out as a supplementary proposal. I think the government have 'been impressed by the debate this afternoon and will listen to the various suggestions that have been made, and I believe they will see that it is their duty to do something in the way of coming to the relief of Nova Scotia if this crisis of which we are told to-day really does impend, because it would mean a great injury to a great industry that we have in this country. If we want to go into the steel business, we must go into it in much the same way as the United States have done. We must encourage it, and perhaps the best way to encourage it was suggested here tonight, and as the Prime Minister says, probably the provinces ought to do something too. But probably the best relief would be by the bounty system. I know nothing that is better calculated to encourage an industry in a country than the bounty system, backed by the province and the Dominion. But some duty is on the government, so far as I can see, after hearing the debate here this afternoon, and is incumbent also, I think, on the province and on this House and the

people of Canada, and especially the people of Quebec and Ontario, to take their coal from the Maritime provinces instead of sending their money to the coal mines of the United States.