Hon. Lyle Vanclief (Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food, Lib.)

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to stand in the House today and make some comments on Bill C-4. I am pleased to speak in support of the motion to refer Bill C-4 to the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-food.

I congratulate my colleague, the Minister of Natural Resources and Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, for the work he has done in the process of developing the bill over the last number of years.

For 62 years the Canadian Wheat Board has been one of the cornerstones of our nation's success in agriculture and agri-food. Changes in Bill C-4 build on that success by providing for a more modern Canadian Wheat Board, one that is more accountable to farmers, more flexible and more responsive. Farmers will have a direct role in shaping the operations and directions of the corporation. They will have more power to take on the very real challenges and opportunities that lie ahead.

Throughout the preparation and debate on the legislation we have done everything possible to ensure that everybody with an interest in this complex issue has a had a full and fair opportunity to voice an opinion.

In July 1995 my predecessor as Minister of Agriculture and Agri-food established the western grain marketing panel to conduct a comprehensive examination of western grain marketing issues. One year later after extensive consultations, including 15 town hall meetings and 12 days of public hearings across the prairies, the panel completed its report and submitted it to the minister.

The minister distributed a summary of the report's recommendations to all farmers in western Canada and invited their feedback. In one way or another more than 12,000 individuals and organizations responded to the panel's recommendations.

In December 1996 Bill C-72 was tabled in the House of Commons. In February 1997 the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-food, which I chaired at that time, held a series of meetings across western Canada. We visited Winnipeg, Regina, Saskatoon, Calgary and Grande Prairie. We heard from more than 40 groups and a similar number of individual farmers during those committee hearings.

As a result of those hearings we made more than 20 amendments to the bill before we reported it back to the House in April 1997. I am pleased to note that the amendments were retained in the new bill. The system does work.

Over the course of the past summer the minister responsible for the wheat board continued to conduct informal consultations with the grains industry officials to hear views on the legislation. In early September he requested views from farm organizations on the appropriate principles to govern the election of the directors. It is therefore no exaggeration to say that the future of the Canadian Wheat Board has been exhaustively discussed and debated.

The purpose of the amendments is to respond to some of the major concerns raised during the debate and to ensure that the CWB is well positioned to continue as a reliable, responsive single desk seller of Canadian wheat and barley in the years ahead.

Our objective is to build on the proven strengths of our existing marketing system while enhancing its accountability, improving its responsiveness to changing producer needs and opportunities, providing more flexibility and faster cashflows, and minimizing future complications in international trade.

We are taking action on all of the points raised by the panel with regard to the accountability of the Canadian Wheat Board. As the minister responsible for the wheat board has explained, under the legislation the current commissioner structure of management would be replaced by a part-time 15 member board of directors.

It would be comprised of ten producer elected representatives and five government appointees including a full-time president. Both the chief executive officer and the full-time president would be responsible for the day to day operations of the board.

The CWB status as an agent of the crown and crown corporation would end when the new board of directors assumes office. The Canadian Wheat Board Advisory Committee would be terminated when deemed appropriate by the minister responsible for the wheat board but not before the end of its current mandate at the end of 1998.

The changes in the bill would also allow the Canadian Wheat Board to offer farmers more options in terms of pricing and timing of payment for their grain and provide it with greater flexibility in the way it acquires grain. At the same time the amendments leave intact the basic principles of single desk selling.

The legislation also includes provisions for adding additional grains to the marketing mandate of the Canadian Wheat Board. I want opposition members to listen to the process that has to take place. In such a case the request would first have to come from a recognized commodity group and the board of directors would have to recommend the inclusion. Then a vote on the inclusion by the producers of that grain would also have to be held. There are a number of steps. After that the changes to the marketing mandate of the Canadian Wheat Board could then be made through an order in council.

The amendments in the bill would also give the board of directors the power to exclude specific types, classes or varieties of wheat or barley from exclusive Canadian Wheat Board jurisdiction in the domestic or export market. This authority would be exercised only upon the recommendation of the board of directors. There would have to be assurances from the Canadian Grain Commission that the necessary quality control measures were in place to avoid co-mingling of grains.

If the board of directors considers the exclusion to be a significant change, a vote of the producers would also have to be held. Again a number of steps would have to take place.

A Canadian Wheat Board governed by a board of directors comprised of a majority of producer elected members would improve accountability to and communications with producers. It would also result in an increased sense of producer ownership of their marketing organization.

While the self-sufficiency of the Canadian Wheat Board would increase, the government would still have an important role to play in supporting it. For example, the government would continue to provide financial backing for initial payments, borrowing, and for such programs as the credit grain sales program. The changes would provide the board with more flexibility in the acquisition and the pricing of wheat and barley enabling it to operate more efficiently, increase returns to farmers and reduce the risk to government.

As I have discussed the bill responds to views expressed by numerous stakeholders. It is important to note, however, that the amendments do not constitute the full response of the Government of Canada to the concerns of the Canadian grain producers and the recommendations of the western grain panel. We are also pursuing many other avenues to address other issues that they brought forward related to grain marketing and transportation.

For example, last November our government introduced legislation to modernize the Canada Labour Code. Among other things those amendments stipulate that while grain handlers and their employees will retain the right to strike and lockout, in the event of a work stoppage involving other parties in port related activities, services affecting grain shipments must be maintained.

On another important issue, specifically the efficiency of our transportation system, the Minister of Transport, the minister responsible for the wheat board and I met this summer on July 25 with key members of the grain industry in Winnipeg. As as result of that meeting the grain transportation industry has developed and put in place a monitoring program and a contingency plan to ensure efficiency in the movement of grain.

Through Bill C-4 and other actions the Government of Canada is demonstrating it is listening to the concerns of Canadian grain producers. It is taking action to address those concerns. It is laying the foundation for continuing growth and prosperity in the grain sector and Canada's rural communities.

I call upon all the members of the House to lend their support to the amendments contained in the legislation.

Mr. Jay Hill (Prince George—Peace River, Ref.)

Madam Speaker, I wish I could say at the outset that it is a pleasure to rise today to address Bill C-4, an act to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act, but the simple truth of the matter is that it is not. A vast majority of western Canadian grain farmers whom the bill will affect and I hoped the minister and his government would have listened to them.

Just to digress for a moment, I noted during the brief remarks of the hon. minister of agriculture a moment ago he referred to some 20 amendments the agriculture committee had made that were ultimately incorporated into the bill before the House today, Bill C-4.

It is important for people watching the debate today to realize that those amendments are very superficial. With the possible exception of the so-called inclusion clause, there is not a lot of substance to those amendments. They do not go nearly far enough to address the real concerns being echoed across the prairies by Canada's western grain farmers.

As with the bill's predecessor, Bill C-72, the minister has accomplished the near impossible by alienating everyone. Where is the support for what he is about to do? If this is the way to proceed and the majority of grain producers support his latest retread legislation, why are they not applauding him? One has to speculate the point of consultations, submissions and hearings undertaken by the minister and his government over the the past year if in the final analysis they do not intend to listen to and incorporate those ideas.

I note the western grain marketing panel and all the debate that took place, as the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food just mentioned, on Bill C-72 both in Ottawa and during the travelling show across the prairies. Where are the substantive arguments put forward by the farm groups and farmers that appeared before that panel? We do not see them in the legislation.

The simple truth is that farmers will not substantially benefit from the legislation, and the Liberals know it. The government is intent on forging ahead despite the cries of the vast majority of producers that it simply does not address their needs.

Part of the government's strategy is to bring forward the bill for 180 minutes of debate with 10 minute speeches and no questions and comments. We in the opposition ranks cannot do an adequate job of discussing such a comprehensive piece of legislation in a 10 minute speech.

In the few moments I have left I will touch briefly on a number of points. I certainly applaud the intervention of the Progressive Conservative member. It is interesting to note that he and his party have picked up on the lead that Reform took on Bill C-72 in the last parliament. They are now basically in line with some of the main points we are raising.

The bill does not include anything that would take the Canadian Wheat Board toward being a voluntary organization. We see a real demand by producers for freedom to choose. We do not see any real options in the bill. That has to be one of its most fundamental flaws.

The minister may bring about the total demise of the Canadian Wheat Board with the legislation. With its all or nothing inclusion and exclusion clauses, a future board of directors could gradually exclude grades and types of grain until eventually the wheat board would be just a shell that does not market anything.

Farmers may divide on their support for the Canadian Wheat Board. Other speakers have referred to the two extremes. The bulk of farmers are in the middle. Between 75% and 80% of farmers want to see some change which ranges from minor change to very substantive change. I have found the majority of farmers are opposed to the contingency fund. They view it as simply another tax being imposed upon them by the government. In a situation where it is mandatory to belong to the Canadian Wheat Board this contingency fund is another tax at a time when farmers cannot afford any more input costs.

Another perplexing part of the legislation is the question of how elected directors will ultimately be held accountable, as my hon. colleague from the Progressive Conservative Party noted.

Like CSIS this organization is highly secretive, ultra secret. It does not have to adhere to access to information and it cannot be audited by the auditor general of the country. We think those are major flaws. Again this was an opportunity for the government to address very real concerns, to open up the board and make it more accountable. I would ask all hon. members and people viewing this debate to answer this question. Can they imagine any other corporation, club, or charity to which they belong answering questions concerning decisions made at an annual general meeting by saying “I can't answer that” or “If I told you that I would have to kill you”. It is absolutely ridiculous.

We have to open up the Canadian Wheat Board. Farmers are demanding it. For the minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board to suggest that this bill is going to make it more accountable is actually ludicrous.

Fourth, yet another anomaly contained in this legislation is the issue of the legal liability for directors, officers and employees of the Canadian Wheat Board. If directors act honestly and in good faith, as it states they must in this legislation, then why do they require protection from criminal activities? If they have shown that they have complied with clause 3.12, then could they not simply prove that in a court of law as other Canadians are required to do without having this other clause 3.13 which basically exempts them?

I also note that one of probably twenty changes that the minister was bragging about a while ago is the deletion of the term “employees”. Yet we find that other persons are also covered under that clause. In view of that the clause stating “person or persons acting at the request of the corporation” would certainly include the employees, at least I think it would.

Finally, there are a lot of concerns across western Canada about the timely and efficient movement of grain to market. This was an opportunity for the government to include in the bill or some other bill the removal of the Canadian Wheat Board from the present position it has across the country with transportation. I support that we should be looking at ways in which we can decrease the bureaucracy inherent in the grain transportation sector. One of those ways would be to have the board take an at port position.

I have one underlying question. Is this the best the Liberals could come up with? Earlier the minister took great pains to justify his rush to get this recycled bill back through the House. He said that extensive consultations had already taken place regarding the legislation. He is correct on that point, but obviously, as I said earlier in my presentation, the simple fact is that he is not listening. He is not responding to the very real needs of producers.

Those producers are crying out for fundamental change and some freedom to choose. In a free and democratic country like Canada it is absolutely ridiculous that we still have this mandatory monopoly left over from the second world war.

Mr. David Iftody (Provencher, Lib.)

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak in this debate on the motion to refer Bill C-4 to the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food.

The changes to the Canadian Wheat Board that are proposed in Bill C-4 have been designed to respond to the wishes of western Canadian grain farmers. Some western grain producers and producer groups have been asking for more flexibility in the marketing of wheat and barley. The question arises, would Bill C-4 allow aspects of a dual market or voluntary marketing through the Canadian Wheat Board? The short answer is yes, subject to the democratic will of the farmers themselves.

The tool, Bill C-4, would enable the Canadian Wheat Board to provide additional marketing options to farmers while maintaining the integrity of pooling and single desk selling. However, the board of directors, two-thirds of whom will be elected by farmers, would also be empowered to recommend changes that would result in a marketing system with some of the features of a dual market, if that is what producers want.

Part IV of the current Canadian Wheat Board Act provides the Canadian Wheat Board with single desk control over the export of wheat and barley, while part III deals with the acquisition of grain from producers, pooling and initial payment.

Part IV also provides for monopoly control over interprovincial trade of wheat and barley which has, of course, long since been removed for domestic feed grain. As members can see, producers currently have three options for selling their feed wheat and feed barley. They can sell it to the Canadian Wheat Board. They can sell it to the private trade. Or they can sell it directly to a domestic customer. None of this will change if Bill C-4 is passed. In fact, it has been made more explicit to remove all doubt.

Right now the option of selling to the Canadian Wheat Board, the private trade or directly to the final customer exists, but only for domestic feed grain. However, under the exclusion clause in the new legislation it will be possible for this option to be extended to “any kind, type, class or grade of wheat and barley.” This clause provides for the exclusion by regulation of any kind, type, class or grade of wheat or barley from the provisions of part IV of the Canadian Wheat Board Act. But it would still allow the Canadian Wheat Board to continue its activities under part III. This would mean that the Canadian Wheat Board would still be able to purchase the grain from producers and at the same time operate a pool.

For such an exclusion to occur three conditions have to be met. First, a new farmer controlled board of directors would have to recommend it. Second, the Canadian Grain Commission would have to approve an identity preservation system to safeguard quality. Third, a producer vote would have to be held if the board of directors decided the exclusion is indeed significant. If all three conditions were met, the minister would recommend the exclusion and the governor in council would pass the legislation.

Balancing the exclusion clause is an inclusion clause. This clause allows for the extensions of part III or part IV or both to grains not currently covered by the Canadian Wheat Board Act. I should point out that this inclusion clause is confined to crops that fall within the definition of grain now in the Canadian Wheat Board Act, that is oats, flax, rye and canola.

It is subject to the commodity organization which best represents the producers of that grain asking for it. And of course, the Canadian Wheat Board directors, as I said, those who were duly elected, would have to agree and farmers would have to approve it by a democratic vote.

Suppose that all these three conditions were fulfilled and suppose that the Canadian Wheat Board Act were thus extended so that part III applied to rye, but not part IV. Remember, part III refers to pooling while part IV refers to single desk selling. Extending part III but not part IV would create a situation as I have described under the exclusion clause, that is, farmers would be able to sell rye not only to the Canadian Wheat Board but to others. If the decision is to extend both parts III and IV, this would result in both pooling and single desk selling.

Another provision of Bill C-4 would allow for cash purchasing. The Canadian Wheat Board would have the flexibility to purchase grain at a price other than the initial payment. If this were used extensively for a particular grain such as feed barley, the result could be that prices for feed barley in Canada would differ from prices in the United States only by actual transfer costs. In such circumstances, licences to export feed barley to the U.S. would likely be granted with no charge for buy back, although there might well be conditions imposed to ensure that such feed barley exports would not adversely affect the Canadian Wheat Board malt barley exports to the U.S.

This situation would be somewhat comparable to a dual market or voluntary marketing through the Canadian Wheat Board.

Finally, part VI of the Canadian Wheat Board Act allows marketing plans for voluntary pools to be established for grains, varieties, grades or classes that are not required to be marketed through the Canadian Wheat Board.

Such a marketing plan can only be set up after an association of producers or an association or firm engaged in the processing and marketing of grain submits a proposal for the establishment of a marketing plan to the minister and is approved by the governor in council. Such a marketing plan would include guaranteed initial payments, however, the guarantee would only cover a maximum of 90% of any losses incurred.

The provision for marketing plans is in the current act but it has never been used. If it were it would result in a voluntary pool for grain covered by the marketing plan. Under this provision the administrator of the plan must be designated. It is conceivable that after it becomes a mixed enterprise the Canadian Wheat Board might qualify to be an administrator.

In conclusion, there are several ways that a dual market or voluntary marketing through the Canadian Wheat Board, or similar results, could be achieved under Bill C-4. All of them would require as a minimum that the producer controlled board of directors take a conscious decision to do so. In most cases farmers would carry the ultimate authority through a democratic producer vote. It comes down to producers deciding what producers want. They will elect the majority of the board of directors and they will vote on inclusion or significant exclusions of crops.

Like many other aspects of the legislation these tools are enabling. They put power in the hands of producers, allowing them to shape the Canadian Wheat Board to the needs of Canadian farmers.

Ms. Hélène Alarie (Louis-Hébert, BQ)

Madam Speaker, as a member of the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food, I am very honoured to take part in the House of Commons debate on Bill C-4 to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act.

I would like to begin by saying that, strictly from the standpoint of principle, the Bloc Quebecois supports Bill C-4, with a few reservations that I will mention.

First of all, it is good to see the decision making power of the Canadian Wheat Board put in the hands of farmers, who represent ten of the 15 members on the board of directors. In addition to making them accountable, their presence means the Canadian Wheat Board is more plugged in to what they actually experience.

The level of trust and agreement between people in the same profession is very high. Quebec farmers are no exception to the rule and want to see their colleagues in the west benefit from this new arrangement of the Canadian Wheat Board.

The fact that elected producers form the majority on the CWB will leave the Board less vulnerable to challenges regarding international trade rules from our trade partners.

Quebec, which prides itself on promoting orderly and harmonious marketing of agricultural products, can only be glad that the Canadian Wheat Board has greater flexibility in marketing its products.

There are, of course, major advantages to streamlining the Canadian Wheat Board's operating method and making it more functional. However, with billion dollar transactions involved, what mechanisms will be introduced to ensure good risk management?

In addition, Quebec taxpayers are not ready to see their tax dollars go toward making up the Canadian Wheat Board's deficits. It will be recalled that these deficits were in the several hundreds of millions of dollars in 1991. Business is business. This is a marketing agency that must be able to assume its deficits in the long term if there are annual losses. Let us hope that the reserve fund does enough to allay that concern.

It is worth pointing out that Quebec wheat purchasers, that is the mills and the bakeries, have appreciated the consistent quality of the products delivered under the auspices of the Canadian Wheat Board, and they hope those same quality standards will be maintained in future under Bill C-4. There are provisions for implementation of quality control.

A reading of the bill raises some questions. This is a bill for western Canada, since 95% of the volume administered by the CWB comes from the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and parts of Ontario and British Columbia, that is the region designated in Bill C-4.

The Bloc Quebecois must, however, look after the agricultural interests of Quebec, both its present and its future interests.

A reading of clauses 24 through 26, which indicate that the CWB may, under certain conditions, recommend that certain types of grains be excluded from or added to the exclusive jurisdiction of the Canadian Wheat Board, leaves one confused. The bill states that the minister may not make the recommendation for exclusion unless the board of directors so recommends and the Canadian Grain Commission has approved a procedure for identifying the grain in question, so as to preserve its identity. If the board is of the opinion that the exemption is significant, the producers will also have to vote on this.

First of all, who are these producers? How will they vote? And most of all, can they be from outside the designated region? In this connection, Quebec is justified in asking questions, since it has to go through the Canadian Wheat Board if it wants to export. What if Quebec were to become an exporter of any of these products?

The federal government retains considerable control over the board of directors of the Canadian Wheat Board. Let us hope that opening it up to the producers is something real, and not just caving in to community pressures.

Bill C-4 contains a good 60 references to the minister. The federal government is, therefore, maintaining considerable control over the Canadian Wheat Board. For example, the federal government is the one to decide how farmers will be elected to the board of directors. The president of the board of directors is appointed by the governor in council on the recommendation of the minister. Why can the elected directors elect the president of the board but not the president of the commission? The president holds office for the period of time set by the federal government. The government is also requiring the Canadian Wheat Board to prepare a corporate plan annually, under clause 19. Obviously, the Minister of Finance must approve the plan.

With this right of review, the Minister of Finance retains control. How much autonomy will the Canadian Wheat Board have? On the one hand, the government allows farmers to speak when it can no longer stand the pressure from the farming community. On the other, the government is keeping the decisions affecting them centralized. You wonder who really has their hand on the tiller.

We in the Bloc Quebecois will be on the watch.

Mr. Wayne Easter (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, Lib.)

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak on Bill C-4, the amendments to the Canadian Wheat Board Act.

In essence this bill is a further refinement of the previous Bill C-72 of the last Parliament on which the agriculture committee held extensive hearings across the Canadian Wheat Board area. This new bill encompasses much of what we heard from the farm community during those hearings and tries to establish a balance between the various views within the farm community.

I hold strong views on the Canadian Wheat Board and personally maintain that commissioners appointed for their expertise and marketing still makes a lot of sense but I am, based on views put forward by the farm community during those hearings, willing to accept the approach of the board of directors and the kind of flexibility that Bill C-4 encompasses.

I would express to those strong Canadian Wheat Board supporters that they will have to be extremely vigilant in the election process because big money from the merchants of grain with allies like we have just heard from the Reform Party is really out to destroy the Canadian Wheat Board over time.

I suggest that those strong supporters of the wheat board be very vigilant in terms of seeing that people are elected to that board who are pro-wheat board supporters, as we have shown can happen through the Canadian Wheat Board advisory process through which the majority of pro-board supporters were elected.

The Canadian Wheat Board has shown itself to be a model, an institution second to none in marketing intelligence and ability through its operating structure to maximize returns back to primary producers.

The three pillars of single desk selling, pooling of returns and government guarantees are essential for the Canadian Wheat Board to maximize those returns back to primary producers. Those pillars remain under this legislation.

The role of the Canadian Wheat Board is to sell western Canadian wheat and barley in the international marketplace at the very best possible price. All proceeds from sales less the marketing costs are then passed back to farmers.

With annual revenues of more than $5.8 billion, the Canadian Wheat Board is one of the country's largest exporters and one of the world's largest grain trading organizations. That is very different from the private grain companies that often work on exploitation of primary producers, the kind of system that Reform members opposite seem to support. The wheat board works on farmers' behalf.

Since its founding in 1935, the Canadian Wheat Board has been able to return premiums to farmers through pooling and single desk selling. Its status as a single desk seller of western Canadian wheat and barley exports has given strength and market power to prairie farmers.

Today instead of competing against one another, Canada's 110,000 wheat and barley farmers sell as one and can therefore command a higher price for their product.

Single desk selling also enables the Canadian Wheat Board to take a unique approach to market development. It is both product and consumer oriented in nature, resulting in long term relationships and a better consumer understanding of Canadian grain. Longer term marketing relationships are to the benefit of farmers and all of Canada.

Through the Canadian Wheat Board all sales are deposited in one of four pool accounts, wheat, durum wheat, feed barley or designated barley. This ensures that all farmers benefit equally regardless of when their grain is sold during the crop year. The system of initial in term adjustments and final payment has worked well.

Even that will be improved in this legislation and the government will continue to guarantee the initial price. As well, the government continues to guarantee the Canadian Wheat Board's borrowings. This allows the CWB to finance its operations at lower rates of interest, again to the benefit of farmers and the country as a whole.

The Canadian Wheat Board, without a doubt, has provided exceptional service to western Canadian farmers for more than half a century. The 1995-96 annual report tabled in this House states:

A performance evaluation conducted during the 1995-96 crop year showed Canada ranks highly with its customers in such areas as quality of product, customer service, technical support and dependability of supply. Another study conducted by three economists showed that the CWB's single desk system generates an additional $265 million per year in wheat revenue for farmers, thereby enhancing Canada's competitiveness. It also showed the CWB provides a low cost marketing service to farmers.

Another thing I should mention is what our competitors are saying. To those who want to undermine the ability of the wheat board, let me quote what our competitors are saying in the U.S.

Robert Carlson of the National Farmer's Union said:

From a competing farmer's perspective, we in the U.S. do not have a vehicle like the CWB to create producer marketing power in the international grain trade. We basically sell for the best price among our local elevator companies and lose our interest in our grain after that point.

Our export trade is dominated by a few large corporations who are interested in buying low and selling high to enhance the earnings of their owners, who are not generally the same people.

If we destroy the various institutions that farmers in many countries have built to help themselves survive economically, we will have nothing left but producers standing bare among the ruins of structures that once empowered and protected them in a marketplace dominated by giants.

Our objective through this legislation, Bill C-4, is to continue to empower our farmers and make the Canadian Wheat Board an even better marketing institution. I would show these Reformers opposite the annual report of the Canadian Wheat Board, “Marketing for the Future”, and that is what this legislation is all about.

Through this legislation, our government is responding to recommendations made by farmers with concrete action. Under Bill C-4, 10 out 15 Canadian Wheat Board directors will be elected by prairie farmers before the end of 1998. That establishes the two-thirds majority farmers called for.

There will also be changes to the Canadian Wheat Board's marketing mandate and greater empowerment for farmers. There will be changes to allow more flexibility in wheat board operations and improvements in cash flow.

In addition, under Bill C-4 the Canadian Wheat Board will be able to adjust management adjustment payments during any crop year much more quickly by removing the need to first obtain cabinet approval.

The legislation also provides for a contingency fund to manage risk consolidated with cash trading. As the minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board has said, the operations of the CWB will also be improved by the access it will have to modern risk management tools that would allow a forward contracting system.

I believe that these changes, along with many other important adjustments proposed in Bill C-4, will effectively build on the principle of more direct producer input into the priorities and operations of the Canadian Wheat Board while also enabling the Canadian Wheat Board to become an even more flexible and effective marketing agent for western Canadian grain farmers in the century ahead.

As it says on the cover of the wheat board annual report, “Marketing for the Future”, this government is willing to empower the Canadian Wheat Board while those opposite are wanting to undermine it. We will succeed in the empowerment of the wheat board.

Mr. John Solomon (Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, NDP)

Madam Speaker, I am very pleased to participate in this debate on Bill C-4. As a matter of fact I am so enthused I was able to persuade my colleague the member for Qu'Appelle to share his 10 minutes. So we will be taking five minutes each on this issue.

There is an old saying that those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. We have seen the Reform Party members stand in this House and try to give a little history lesson as it has been rewritten by the Reform Party, not quite going back to the dirty thirties where there were no marketing boards working co-operatively to market farmers' grains in this country. They fail to remember that part of history where farmers were having a very difficult struggle in this country to make ends meet but we will see what happens down the road.

In the last Parliament the NDP caucus opposed Bill C-72 which is now Bill C-4 which is before the House. We opposed it as it was originally introduced in December 1996 for a number of reasons and I want to summarize some of those reasons today.

One was cash buying. The board's great strength and its success are based on its practice of buying grain from farmers at an initial price, marketing it as a single desk seller and distributing any surplus earnings equitably as final payments. We were concerned about provisions in Bill C-72 for the board to buy grain for cash from anyone, anywhere at any time. We felt cash buying had the potential to undermine the board and as a result farmers' confidence in it.

We were concerned about governance. Given the language of former Bill C-72 we feared that the government and not farmers would control the board's destiny. For example it was not clear then how many directors there would be. Nor was it clear how many of the directors would be appointed by the minister and how many would be elected by the farmers.

My colleague the member for Palliser has outlined what changes have been made as a result of our interventions in the previous Parliament. Of course two-thirds of the board are now going to be elected in 1998.

The minister also retained the power to appoint the chair of the board of directors as well as the president of the board. This has not been changed in Bill C-4. We still support this component of the remake of the CWB.

What concerned us most was that Bill C-72 allowed for the exclusion of grains from the wheat board's jurisdiction but made no parallel provisions for grains to be added to that jurisdiction. We felt that this was clearly hostile to the board and we could not understand why this provision was in the legislation. For the information of the House it is now in Bill C-4 and we are very pleased that grains are being included as opposed to being excluded.

Bill C-72 was introduced in December 1996 but the legislation was soon overtaken by events. The minister decided that farmers should vote on whether they wished to continue to market export barley through the wheat board. In a certain sense he was experimenting with the exclusion clause of Bill C-72 even before it became law.

The barley vote occurred amid great controversy. A few farmers who were stubbornly opposed to the board had earlier chosen to break the law. Rather than sell to the board, they ran to the border with truckloads of grain. Some of these farmers and their soulmates in the Reform Party and the National Citizens' Coalition as well continued to use every available opportunity to attack the wheat board as we have heard today in the House of Commons.

The Alberta government even mounted a constitutional challenge to the board's right to buy and sell grain on behalf of farmers. The courts have now spoken, ruling in the board's favour.

But all of that is history. As we know the barley vote was held last February and the great majority of farmers left no doubt as to where they stand. Fully two-thirds of barley growers voted to continue to have the wheat board act as the single desk seller for their grains.

The Reform Party always boasts about how democratic it is, about how it believes in referenda and plebiscites as a means of making political decisions. Here is a perfect opportunity for Reform Party members. Two out of three farmers voted in favour of wheat board marketing. We might expect that Reform would now honour its commitment to democracy and accept the wishes of the majority. But as I said earlier, those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them and that is Reform's tombstone in my view.

The Reform Party rhetoric is one thing and principled action is completely something else as far as Reformers are concerned. Based on what I have seen and heard from Reformers, they will continue to attack the wheat board. They have no intention of respecting the wishes of the majority of farmers when it comes to the wheat board. I think that speaks volumes about the integrity of that party.

Finally, I want to congratulate former New Democratic Party members Vic Althouse and Len Taylor who worked very hard in the committee prior to the election being called to establish some of these major changes on behalf of the wheat board, on behalf of farmers throughout Canada.

Hon. Lorne Nystrom (Qu'Appelle, NDP)

Madam Speaker, I want to say a few words today in support of Bill C-4.

The history of the CCF and the NDP over the last 50 or 60 years has been one of supporting the Canadian Wheat Board and fighting very hard for orderly marketing in other marketing boards in this country. I am very proud to say that in the last Parliament our small caucus was able to persuade the government to come forth with a stronger bill which is why we can support this bill in principle today. At the committee stage of course we will be moving amendments to improve the bill further.

I want to put on the record that we strongly support single desk marketing in this country. It is a principle which is supported by the vast majority of farmers right across this country. We saw that recently in February 1997 when two-thirds of the barley producers voted in favour of marketing their barley through the Canadian Wheat Board, through single desk marketing.

The Reform Party is hypocritical. I do not even know if it should be called Reform. Sometimes it is the deform party. It opposes the Canadian Wheat Board and has called for dual marketing. Meanwhile it says that it wants referenda for everything. It says that it is a grassroots party. Remember the rhetoric of its leader saying that it is a grassroots party and that it will listen to the people.

Two-thirds of the people have spoken, the barley producers. And where are the Reform Party members? Are they in the House saying that barley should be marketed through the Canadian Wheat Board? No they are not. They are silent. On the one hand they say there should be referenda. There was a referendum. The farmers said very clearly that they wanted their barley to be marketed through the Canadian Wheat Board and that is the way it is going to be. Yet the Reform Party members are silent on the issue. They do not believe their own rhetoric. They do not fulfil their campaign promises.

The farmers have spoken, the grassroots have spoken, the people have spoken. Where is the Reform Party? Reformers are not listening to the people. They have broken their word. They have broken their promises. It is about time Reformers were called to task for their hypocrisy, called to task for breaking promises, called to task for misleading the farmers of this country. This is only one example of where they have broken their promises.

They have another promise. Recall. Where are those prairie MPs who said they would listen to the farmers? They should be recalled. There should be petitions recalling those prairie MPs. They have said one thing and done the opposite.

The Leader of the Opposition said “I would never move into Stornoway. No, I would never move into Stornoway. It will be a bingo hall”. Where is the Leader of the Opposition resting his head at night? Where is he dreaming at night? In Stornoway. What hypocrisy we are seeing from the Reform Party.

They are very quiet. They are ashamed of themselves. They are hanging their heads in shame. The right wing Neanderthals of the Reform Party say one thing and practise something else. It is time they were exposed to the farmers of this country. It is time they were exposed to the people of Canada.

Mr. John Harvard (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food, Lib.)

Madam Speaker, first I would like to offer my apologies for a raspy, scratchy voice. I beg the indulgence of members of the House to hear me out this morning.

Madam Speaker, I want to congratulate you on your appointment to the Chair. I am sure you will do a good job.

This being my first opportunity to give a speech in the House during this Parliament, I want to take the opportunity to say thanks to my constituents for returning me to the House of Commons for a third term. I thank them for placing their confidence in me once again.

One of the reasons I am happy to speak on Bill C-4 is because the Canadian Wheat Board's home is in my city, the city of Winnipeg. In fact many employees of the Canadian Wheat Board are constituents of mine who live in the riding of Charleswood—Assiniboine.

I would like to outline some of the changes which distinguish the new bill from its previous incarnation in the last Parliament, that is Bill C-72. I would also like to detail the proposed amendments that are aimed at both rejuvenating and modernizing the Canadian Wheat Board and putting control over its activities squarely in the hands of producers.

Throughout its 62-year history the board has been an agent of the crown answerable solely to the Government of Canada and governed by a small group of up to five commissioners. Bill C-4 provides for a big and immediate change in the way the board is governed. Under this proposed legislation a board of 15 directors of whom 10 would be directly elected by producers would govern the operation of the wheat board.

Therefore under the new bill the Canadian Wheat Board would become a mixed enterprise, and for the first time in its lengthy history it would become accountable in a very direct way to the producers it serves. This means that producers will have a larger and more direct voice in the way in which their marketing system operates. These changes are consistent with the majority recommendations put forth by the Western Grain Marketing Panel.

As many of the members of the House may recall, in 1995 an extensive consultative process was undertaken that involved literally tens of thousands of producers across western Canada. The goal of that process was to determine how best to revitalize and modernize the operations of the Canadian Wheat Board. It culminated in a set of recommendations made by the Western Grain Marketing Panel in July 1996.

While the debate among western farmers with respect to grain marketing is a sharply polarized one, it makes it all but impossible to arrive at one all-encompassing solution. The minister responsible for the wheat board has listened to the concerns of western farmers and has answered their calls for a more responsive, accountable and accessible wheat board.

The evidence is before the House today in the form of Bill C-4, an act to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts. This legislation proposes major changes to the Canadian Wheat Board that will empower farmers as never before.

What has changed from Bill C-72? Although Bill C-4 resembles very closely Bill C-72, there are a few changes that differentiate it from its predecessor. Foremost among these is the elimination of the interim appointed board of directors provided for in Bill C-72. This was to be a transitional measure, however the government has responded to farmers who saw no need for this step.

Under Bill C-4 the Canadian Wheat Board would be governed by a board of directors with a majority of its members elected by farmers and accountable to them. I repeat elected to farmers and accountable to farmers. This board of directors should be in place by December 1998 at the very latest. Ideally it would be in place as soon as next spring. The draft bill no longer provides for an interim bill.

The second major change in Bill C-4 is the provision that allows for the inclusion or exclusion of grains under the Canadian Wheat Board's mandate. Similar to an amendment tabled by my colleague the hon. member for Malpeque during the last Parliament, this provides that such a change in the Canadian Wheat Board's mandate can only be triggered if certain conditions are met.

If producers wish to remove a type of grain from the mandate of the board, they will be able to do so subject to three conditions. First there must be a recommendation to do so from the board of directors. Second the Canadian Grain Commission must approve an identity preservation system to ensure quality standards remain intact. Remember Canada has a great reputation when it comes to our wheat and we want to maintain that. Third if the exclusion is viewed as significant by the board of directors, a vote among producers must be held.

Similarly if producers wish to add additional grains to the wheat board's mandate, this too could be possible subject to three specific conditions. First the farm organization representing the producers of that commodity must make a written request for the inclusion. Second the inclusion would have to be recommended by the wheat board's board of directors. Third producers themselves must vote in favour of the addition. That is pretty democratic in my estimation.

These new provisions are balanced and fair both ways for either exclusions or inclusions. In either case the decision making authority lies where it should be, directly with producers themselves. The clear goal is to put farmers in the driver's seat when it comes to any future changes in what grains the wheat board markets.

It should also be noted that when Bill C-72 was originally drafted, both the Financial Administration Act and the Canada Business Corporations Act were used as models for various provisions. Subsequently it was decided that it would be more appropriate if provisions in the CWB act relating to the duties of directors and officers were the same as those in the Canada Business Corporations Act which applies to private sector corporations. Accordingly, a few revisions have been made.

Hon. members opposite might wish to note that references to employees in provisions relating to the duty of care, duty to comply, limit of liability and indemnification have been deleted. These changes will result in employees of the Canadian wheat board being placed in the same position as employees of any corporation. To me that makes a lot of sense. If they are acting in good faith and within the scope of their employment, then they would have the same protection under common law as would employees of private corporations.

As for the directors and officers of the Canadian wheat board they will naturally be required to abide by the law. They will also have the duty to act honestly and in good faith, exercising all reasonable care, diligence and skill. If they fail in that duty they will expose themselves to legal liability.

In addition to the changes that I have mentioned, all of the amendments made to Bill C-72 in the last Parliament have been retained in Bill C-4. It reflects the essence of the Western Canadian Marketing Panel's recommendations on Canadian wheat board governance and operational flexibility and also establishes the criteria and general process for making changes to the wheat board's marketing mandate. These changes usher in a new era of accountability and flexibility within the Canadian Wheat Board, ensuring that it is well positioned to compete with in the global marketplace as the dawn of a new millennium approaches.

Canada has roughly a 20% share of the world market in grain. This is in no small way as a direct result of our having a single desk seller of wheat and barely that combines size, global reach and marketing clout to bring about the best possible returns from its world markets. Because of the not for profit nature of the Canadian Wheat Board the cost to farmers for the premiums commanded by the board amount to mere pennies per bushel. This is well worth reiterating.

Mr. Jason Kenney

Madam Speaker, on a point of order. I understand that the member is at least three minutes over his time. Every member has been tightly constricted in the debate, including the Leader of the Opposition. I would ask that the Chair enforce the time limits on this debate.

As far as I know, there is no problem on the time. Everything has been according to the chronometer. The member has 10 minutes.

Mr. John Harvard

Madam Speaker, I understand that I have only a few seconds left. After all, I was given 10 minutes as everyone else was.

I look forward to this bill's moving on to committee and I am sure that it will be vetted and examined there very closely and we will have a vigorous debate.

Mr. Bill Casey (Cumberland—Colchester, PC)

Madam Speaker, I would like to congratulate you on your elevation to your new position.

I say to my constituents that this is the first time I have had a chance to speak at any great length in the House and I really appreciate being returned to the House after a short vacation of three and a half years. I am certainly pleased to be back and I will do my best to represent their interests.

Bill C-4, the Canadian Wheat Board bill, is a difficult issue. It is very complicated and there are a lot of stakeholders and many positions, as my colleague from Brandon—Souris reported a while ago. The government had to take a position on this issue.

There are four options available. It could get rid of the Canadian Wheat Board altogether which 37% of farmers recently voted in favour of, quite an astounding vote to toss the wheat board out completely. This certainly expresses a great deal of frustration and anger for 37% of the people to say throw it away and we will go our own way.

The second choice would be to leave the status quo, and I do not thank anyone agrees that is a realistic possibility. The third option would be change the board and have influence from the primary producers, and this is what Bill C-4 does.

We would have preferred some voluntary participation so that farmers would have a choice. How would the fast food industry react if a small group or majority group of fast food operators said that all fast food operators would operate a certain way without choices? This would not be acceptable. It would be the same with the steel industry and with the fishermen in my part of the country. If a majority of fishermen said they were going to sell their fish and produce to a certain group of people and that the rest of the fishermen would have to comply, it would not be acceptable.

Farmers should have an option. It should be voluntary participation in the Canadian Wheat Board like every other industry. This goes well with the general direction of global economy and privatization.

We are willing to support certain aspects of this bill but we will require amendments. We will be making positive amendments, not nuisance amendments. One area we are concerned about is the inclusion clause. We do not understand it nor do we understand the purpose of it. There is no support from the farmers we have talked to. It seems to be a backward step in the age of global economy and privatization.

The exclusion clause is positive and it does acknowledge the needs and the desires of some people to have voluntary inclusion in the program. But it is very complex and vary cumbersome to implement the exclusion clause. We would like it made a little more flexible and available to more people.

Ten out of fifteen people on the board of directors are from the industry. Four of the fifteen members and the CEO will be appointed. The previous speaker said he wanted to put farmers in the driver's seat. If we are going to put them in the driver's seat why do we not let them drive and have all of the board members from the industry rather than just ten?

In Ontario the industry drives the system. In the Ontario Wheat Board all members are elected. We do not see why the members of the Canadian Wheat Board are not also elected. The CEO should definitely be elected from the board, by the board of directors, as in any other format.

The indemnification clause bothers us. The board members are allowed to set their own pay, benefits and make all the decisions. It says, however, that they will not be responsible for any errors or omissions. This is unacceptable. They must be responsible if they are responsible for their own pay, benefits and working conditions. In any case this is still a monopoly the way it is set up. There must be accountability. The way Bill C-4 sets it up there is indemnification and there is no responsibility on behalf of the board members. With a monopoly there must be openness. There must be access to information, freedom of information and there must be accountability. We will probably put forward an amendment on that.

Another area which was brought to our attention by industry people is the contingency fund. If farmers are to take the responsibility for the contingency fund and not the federal government, why are there still five federal appointees on the board? Farmers see no place for the federal government's board members if they are to be responsible for the fund. They think all members should be elected.

There is a big hole in Bill C-4 the way I see it as the transportation critic. Transportation is not mentioned in the bill at all and there are no issues with respect to transportation. The second biggest issue in grain handling in this country is transportation. It involves every aspect of the business, rail operators, elevator operators, port operators, pilotage organizations, pool operators and the primary producers, the farmers. Most people we have talked to have indicated that the issue of transportation is equal to all others. It must be addressed.

One aspect that is extremely cumbersome is that the Canadian Wheat Board has total control over the allocation of wheat cars. This makes it almost impossible for the farmers to have access to the cars.

It means that empty ships are waiting in Vancouver harbour and full train cars are sitting in the port of Vancouver but with the wrong product. The wheat board has determined that the wrong product should be shipped to port. It is a mistake. We think this should be completely reviewed and the primary producers should be involved in what grain goes in what train cars and is delivered to what port and when. They must play a role in it.

Another issue is pilotage charges. It has been brought our attention that pilotage charges are expensive. With new technology there is no need for these pilotage charges, especially on the west coast. In the end the grain industry pays for them.

We are pushing for a review of the Canadian Wheat Board issues and on wheat transportation issues in general. We believe the system cannot respond quickly anymore to changing market demands. There is no accountability in the transportation system in the wheat transportation business. There is no penalty for non-performance. Many market opportunities are missed because of full train cars sitting on the wharf, empty ships in the harbour and the wrong grain in the train cars.

This system is designed to fail in the global economy. It clings to the assumptions of a bygone age and it means the system cannot work. We think the system must change and we have a plan. We would like to see the new system have accountability. Farmers are accountable for delivering the right grain in a timely manner. Railways are accountable for moving grain according to agreed on terms. Shippers are accountable for loading the grain at the right time in the right place.

We think market forces should be responsible. We think market forces should determine what grain goes where and when. We think those people who buy grain should determine when it moves, not the people producing it and not the people in the Canadian Wheat Board. The demand should determine what grain goes where. We think there should be just in time delivery so farmers do not have grain sitting in elevators for months at a time or sitting in train cars at the port of Vancouver.

There are many things. We want choice for the grain companies. We want them to have choices for transportation as much as possible. We want transparencies so the rules are clear to all participants in the system. We want a reasonable transportation cost. As much as the Canadian Wheat Board is a monopoly, so is the rail system a monopoly. With deregulation and changes in rail costs coming down, the transportation costs for wheat should be coming down. They are not. We would like to see some control over costs that way.

We have a lot to say on this bill. We want it to proceed but we want it to proceed with the amendments the industry is demanding.

Mr. Reg Alcock (Winnipeg South, Lib.)

Madam Speaker, as a quick comment on the final remarks of the previous speaker, I suggest this is the Wheat Board Act. There has been a great deal of work done in the transportation department and the transportation committee on the issue of grain transportation and some of the problems in developing a truly competitive rail system. I do not think that is something contained in this legislation and we should not detract from the importance of this legislation in trying to solve a separate problem.

I congratulate the minister responsible for the wheat board for what has been a truly Herculean task. The minister has worked for more than two years consulting with producers throughout Canada. This is a service to more than 110,000 Canadian farm families. It directly affects their livelihood and you do not undertake changes to such a program without careful consideration and consultation within that community.

The minister has done a superb job and is to be congratulated.

I come from the city of Winnipeg. I do not farm. I live in an urban centre. Urban centres right across the prairies are enormously impacted by the health of the agricultural community. The large grain companies and the wheat board itself are located in Winnipeg along with the commodities exchange and a host of suppliers that make their living on the effectiveness of the work done in the farming communities around the urban centres.

I would like to focus in my remarks today on the whole issue of accountability and democratization. The minister has made a very prudent step in his move to open up the operations of the wheat board to control five producers.

I am a little surprised by the reaction of the Reform Party. Like the member for Qu'Appelle pointed out, members of the Reform Party came into the House in the last session, in the last campaign and now in this session talking about the importance of taking direction from their voters, the importance of listening to their constituents and acting in their best interest.

I cannot think of another circumstance when it has been clearer what producers want. A small number of producers would like to see the board abandoned completely now, but a substantial majority of producers, and not 50 plus 1, want exactly the kind of changes the minister is proposing.

I do not understand what part of democracy the Reform Party does not like. A majority of members of the new wheat board will be elected directly by producers. It is unclear what members opposite are objecting to.

The board will be more flexible. It will be more accountable. Producers will have the opportunity to make major management decisions such as excluding certain types of grain from the control of the board. I was interested in the remarks of the Conservative member who referred to including certain types of grain. That member supported the exclusion but had grave concerns about the inclusion.

Is that not what democracy is all about? If we tell farmers they are empowered to make decisions following a process that consults with the producers, and as in the act a vote must be taken, what does the member of the Reform Party fear?

If a significant majority of producers vote in favour of including something in the wheat board, are they not the ones to make that decision? Similarly if they vote to exclude something, are they not the ones to make that decision? Is that not what we have heard across the floor in the last four years from the Reform Party, that we should trust people to make the decisions in their own best interests? That is what the minister has tried very hard to do.

It is a balanced approach. It is a big step. It does not go all the way to full democratization, but it certainly takes us down that road and puts control directly in the hands of producers.

The bill is about five basic principles. It is about empowering producers. It is about putting authority where producers have always wanted it.

I urge my friend in the Reform Party to consider all producers. Let us not just be concerned about a few large producers along the American border. Let us consider what the wheat board has always been charged to do along with the rights and needs of all producers. Let us trust in producers as a group to make decisions which should properly be made by them because it has a direct impact on their livelihood. The bill enshrines that authority. It enshrines the democratic process that outlines the authority those duly elected members will have in the management of the new wheat board.

I was a little surprised to hear the opposition of the member for Portage—Lisgar to the new accountability provisions. I heard him speak about the need for the wheat board to be more accountability, yet when we take that action in the bill he wants to toss it out. I am a little puzzled by that.

The board will have access to audited financial statements. It will have access to all the operational information it needs to make decisions about the proper functioning of the wheat board. The board will have control.

It has enhanced powers in its overall flexibility. The board can make the decision to include or exclude types of grain. It can make the decision about how it will market. I fail to understand the concern of the member for Portage—Lisgar.

The bill does something the government has tried to do in a great many areas, that is open up the processes of governance and hand over to people directly affected in a community the right and responsibility for the management of that entity. We have seen it with the moves in the transportation industry. We have seen it with the moves in the establishment of independent, arm's length agencies, in research infrastructure and now in scholarships. We are saying that governments can step back and can trust the community to make those decisions.

I am fundamentally amazed the one party in the House that constantly preaches this process refuses to support it.

Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner (Portage—Lisgar, Ref.)

Mr. Speaker, it is always a pleasure to sit in the House, listen and learn, and then give the opposition some good advice and perhaps explain a term or two.

The hon. member for Winnipeg South asked me why we could not support democracy. In the last election were there only Conservatives and Liberals on the ballot? Were there not Reform and NDP candidates? When we vote on the Canadian Wheat Board, why do we not have on the ballot single desk selling, open market or voluntary wheat board? Why do we not have four options? To me democracy is a clear vote with no argument.

In committee we elected our chairman. I wanted to ask the hon. parliamentary secretary to the minister for the wheat board how he explains democracy and I was ruled out of order. To me democracy is a vote by a secret ballot, not one with a policeman standing at the door and counting fingers. That is not democracy. I have seen that type of democracy in the Soviet Union and in Eastern Bloc countries but not in democracies like Canada, the United States and Great Britain.

I am all for democracy. I am for a free vote on the Canadian Wheat Board. Everybody has hammered me because I do not represent farmers. Let us ask members across the way how many rural Liberal or NDP members there are from Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta? Not very many. They cannot hold one to a dozen that we have, so they should not tell me that we are not representing farmers.

Mr. Wayne Easter

100% in Ontario.

Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner

None, none, at all. Is it democracy to have somebody in Ottawa dictating to farmers in western Canada what they have to do, no matter what the price?

They did not listen to the latest ruling by Judge Huband in Manitoba on the wheat board court case. He said the wheat board had no accountability to farmers. It does not have to maximize prices. All it is obliged to do under the wheat board act is to move grain.

Is that representing farmers? For goodness' sake, to me that is distortion. Perhaps I am getting a little strong with my words. Maybe I had better tone down.

Hon. Lorne Nystrom

The farmers spoke.

Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner

The hon. member from the NDP talked about accountability and equality. I wish he would explain it to me. When his MP pension plan is about $2 million and my farmers are starving, where is the accountability? How did the NDP vote on the MP pension plan?

Mr. Jason Kenney

How come he did not run in Yorkton this time?

Mr. Jake E. Hoeppner

I wonder why he did not run in Yorkton. I do not think there were many farmers there. He needed the farmers. He wanted them to vote for him, did he not, or why did he move?

It is an interesting House in which to sit and listen to these people talking about democracy, accountability and equality. As long as somebody in Ottawa can tell us what to do in western Canada it is accountability and it is democracy. When we in western Canada send 60 Reform MPs representing all the rural areas we say what farmers need. They want a voluntary wheat board, a wheat board that can market all grain and get the best price for them. But that is not equality, that is no good, according to the government.