Hon. Jim Peterson (Secretary of State (International Financial Institutions), Lib.)

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 83(1) I wish to table a notice of a ways and means motion respecting the imposition of duties, of customs and other taxes to provide relief against the imposition of certain duties and taxes and to provide for other related matters.

At the same time, I would ask that an order of the day be designated for consideration of a motion.

Mr. Darrel Stinson (Okanagan—Shuswap, Ref.)

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-236, an act to repeal the Firearms Act and to make certain amendments to the Criminal Code.

Mr. Speaker, I rise to table my private member's bill to repeal the Firearms Act and to require that persons convicted of using a firearm to commit a crime must serve five years in prison; and that the sentence is increased to ten years if the firearm is actually fired.

This bill is important because the Canadian people want a serious crackdown on the unlawful use of firearms rather than legislation which aims primarily at law-abiding gun owners.

(Motion deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Mr. Darrel Stinson (Okanagan—Shuswap, Ref.)

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-237, an act to provide for a national referendum to authorize the Government of Canada to negotiate terms of separation with a province that has voted for separation from Canada.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to table my private member's bill entitled the negotiation of terms of separation act. This legislation provides the principles to determine whether a provincial vote to separate is valid and would require partition of any provincial electoral areas not voting to leave Canada. It would require a clear statement on a separation ballot of what a yes vote truly means. If Parliament agreed that such a vote was valid, then the Government of Canada would be required to hold a binding national referendum to authorize it to negotiate terms of separation.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.)

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-238, an act to establish principles of responsible fiscal management and to require regular publication of information by the Minister of Finance to demonstrate the government's adherence to those principles.

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to introduce this bill. It is quite lengthy and sets out requirements for the Minister of Finance to state his intentions over the next few years to forecast the finances of the country and to give reasons on a yearly basis as to why he is not meeting his targets.

In addition, it requires the publishing at least three months before the start of each fiscal year of a complete budget policy statement using standard accounting practices so that all the obligations of government are listed.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Mr. Grant Hill (Macleod, Ref.)

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-239, an act to amend the Consumer Packaging and Labelling Act (recombinant hormones).

Mr. Speaker, this bill is directed toward the ethical and health components of new technology. Genetic engineering is evident with bovine growth hormone. This bill would make certain that those individuals who wish to have the choice to use or not use milk produced in this way would have the product labelled. The bill has larger implications in terms of genetic technology in general. It will also look at labelling of other foods that are genetically engineered.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Mr. Ted White (North Vancouver, Ref.)

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-240, an act to amend the Debt Servicing and Reduction Account Act (gifts to the crown).

Mr. Speaker, this bill would put an end to a process that has been taking place over the years. There has always been a debt reduction and servicing account where people could make gifts to the crown, supposedly to reduce the debt. But the government has always had access to that account and could play this sort of shell game where it pays off a bit of the debt and then borrows the money back again.

My bill would make sure that any money given specifically to the crown to pay down the debt would have to stay in trust until such time as there were surpluses, then it could be used to pay down the debt.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Mr. Deepak Obhrai (Calgary East, Ref.)

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-241, an act to amend the Immigration Act (right of landing fee).

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to introduce my private member's bill in the House today. This bill amends the Immigration Act to prevent the assessment of the right of landing fee on immigrants in addition to the application fee. This will prevent economic discrimination against immigrants from low income countries which may be caused by such fees.

Canada is a land of immigrants and the current right of landing fee placed on people coming to Canada in addition to their application fee is discriminatory and regressive.

This practice goes against our history and against our vision of our country. Almost everyone can trace their roots back to immigrants and even today immigrants continue to play an important role in Canada's development.

This bill is a step in returning Canada back to its vision regarding immigrants. This bill was introduced in the second session of the 35th Parliament and I hope that members of the House will seriously consider the bill's intent and purpose.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

Mr. Jim Gouk (West Kootenay—Okanagan, Ref.)

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to present a petition from my constituents who point out that they are opposed to the potential legislation on dietary supplements that would significantly and very negatively impact on the health and well-being of thousands of Canadians, especially the elderly and the chronically ill.

Mr. Darrel Stinson (Okanagan—Shuswap, Ref.)

Mr. Speaker, I wish to table a petition from citizens across Canada who are concerned about national unity.

They ask that Parliament confirm that Canada's boundaries can only be resolved either by a free vote of all Canadians or through amending the Constitution by means of the amending formula.

This is one of the most critical issues facing our country and I hope the government will give serious consideration to these constructive suggestions.

Mr. Brent St. Denis (Algoma—Manitoulin, Lib.)

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to present petitions today from hundreds of people from the St. Joseph Island and Desbarats area of my riding.

The petitioners are concerned with the court decision in Ontario last year overturning a conviction of a women who went topless in public. They ask that the federal government do something about this matter.

Mr. Peter Adams (Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, Lib.)

Mr. Speaker, I suggest that all questions be allowed to stand.

Is that agreed?

Agreed.

Bill C-4. On the order: Government Orders

September 25, 1997—The Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board—Second reading and reference to the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food of Bill C-4, an act to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts.

Hon. Ralph E. Goodale (Minister of Natural Resources and Minister responsible for the Canadian Wheat Board, Lib.)

moved:

That Bill C-4, an act to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act and to make consequential amendments to other acts, be referred forthwith to the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to open the debate on the proposed new law to change the Canadian Wheat Board, and to bring about the biggest changes in western grain marketing in more than half a century. At the outset I want to thank the government House leader for ensuring that this new legislation, Bill C-4, is before the House of Commons at a very early stage in this new Parliament. It is getting prompt, priority attention which is important to prairie farmers.

I noticed one urban news reporter complaining the other day that Bill C-4 had “suddenly” been introduced in the House. It may have escaped that reporter's attention that amendments to the Canadian Wheat Board Act have been under consideration for more than two years. The consultations and analyses have been both exhaustive and exhausting, probably the most comprehensive in history. The whole process has been thoroughly public and transparent.

We promised to move quickly in this new Parliament to make the Canadian Wheat Board more democratic, more accountable and more flexible and to place more decision-making authority in the hands of grain producers than ever before in history. Bill C-4 fulfils that undertaking.

The Canadian Wheat Board is a $6 billion enterprise doing business in 70 countries worldwide. It ranks among the top 10 Canadian exporters. It is the country's biggest single earner of foreign exchange. Once Bill C-4 is enacted, farmers will be in the driver's seat like never before.

Throughout its history the Canadian Wheat Board has been governed by a small group of up to five commissioners, all appointed by the Government of Canada without any requirement that anybody be consulted and legally responsible only to the Government of Canada. But in today's dynamic and changing marketplace, producers have made it clear that they want the Canadian Wheat Board to be more accountable to them. They want more control, and that is what Bill C-4 will provide.

Under the new law for the first time in history, the CWB will be run by a duly constituted board of directors. There will be 15 directors in total and two-thirds of them, 10 directors, will be elected directly by prairie farmers. That is a solid controlling majority. If Parliament is able to deal with this bill promptly, the elections to select these new directors can be held before another crop is planted.

The law will provide that all of the powers of the Canadian Wheat Board are vested in the hands of its directors. Because two-thirds of them will be elected, they will be directly accountable through the democratic process for how they manage the CWB's multibillion dollar business.

In addition to their general power to run all the affairs of the CWB and in response to specific recommendations from farmers, the directors will have the explicit authority to choose their own chairperson, to set the salaries of the directors, the chairperson and the president, to conduct regular performance appraisals on the president and to recommend his or her dismissal if thought necessary.

Contrary to erroneous assertions of some of the wheat board's more strident critics, like that gaggle of political drifters who make up the so-called Saskatchewan Party in my home province, neither the CWB nor the government will retain any power to fire any elected director.

To ensure that farmers are well served, the directors will be entitled to full disclosure of all facts and figures about CWB operations, including but not limited to audited financial statements. They will be able to examine the prices at which grain is sold, the price premiums achieved, all operating costs and whether the CWB is truly efficient.

Through its elected directors the CWB will gain the benefit of the practical expertise of real producers. If they are not satisfied with how the CWB deals with farmers or its sales strategy or the way it does business, they will have the authority to change things as they see fit democratically.

One group that has been particularly outrageous in its attacks on the Canadian Wheat Board is the National Citizens' Coalition, a funny bunch that would not know a bushel of barley from a handful of rice. It alleges, wrongly, that this new legislation would give the directors and the officers of the CWB free rein to ignore and break the law. That is patently false. If you have any doubt, just read the bill.

The directors and officers of the CWB will be under an explicit obligation to act honestly and in good faith, exercising all reasonable care, diligence and skill. If they fail in that duty they will expose themselves to legal liability. They will carry a very heavy fiduciary responsibility.

The provisions in Bill C-4 on this point are virtually identical to provisions that appear in the Canada Business Corporations Act which applies to all federally incorporated private sector companies in the country.

Despite the structural changes in governance and accountability, the Government of Canada will continue to provide the Canadian Wheat Board with very substantial financial guarantees, covering not only the initial payment set at the beginning of each pooling period and the CWB's credit sales program, but also all of its general business borrowings.

Since the CWB is a multibillion dollar enterprise, the amounts outstanding under these guarantees are often very large. Historically, because of the wheat board's strong performance, the federal guarantees have been called on in only rare and isolated circumstances, but the Government of Canada is on the hook if something suddenly goes wrong.

For this reason the government will continue to have a window on Canadian Wheat Board affairs, in addition to that line of accountability directly to western farmers.

Such a window is also necessary because any Canadian exporter of wheat or barley, whether on the prairies or elsewhere, requires a Canadian Wheat Board export permit. Consequently, the government will select a minority of the CWB's directors, five in total, including the president.

Please note that under the new law the choice of president requires consultation in advance with the other directors. The directors as a whole will have the right to set the president's salary, to appraise the president's performance and to recommend dismissal if necessary. Farmers will always hold a two to one majority among the directors over all.

To enhance the Canadian Wheat Board's flexibility, to give farmers more choice in how they are paid for their grain and to speed up cash flows to producers, Bill C-4 will enable the Canadian Wheat Board to make cash purchases of wheat and/or barley, increase initial payments quickly whenever market conditions warrant, close and pay out pool accounts at any time, provide an early pool cash-out option, fully use modern risk management tools, issue negotiable producer certificates, offset storage costs, facilitate deliveries to condo storage systems and receive grain through on-farm mobile elevators.

This new law will also empower producers to determine democratically what is and what is not under the Canadian Wheat Board's marketing jurisdiction. If farmers want to exclude some type of grain, in whole or in part, from the Canadian Wheat Board's current single desk system, that can be done, subject to three clear conditions. First, the CWB's directors must recommend it. Second, the Canadian Grain Commission must approve an identity preservation system to protect quality standards. Third, if the proposed exclusion is significant there must be a vote among producers to approve it.

Conversely, if farmers want to include rye or flax or canola within the Canadian Wheat Board's mandate, that too can be done, again subject to three very clear conditions. First, the farm organization which represents the producers of that commodity must make a formal written request for the inclusion. Second, the CWB's directors must recommend it. Third, there must be a vote among farmers to approve it.

These provisions are balanced and fair both ways, for either exclusions or inclusions, and in either case the authority is vested where it belongs, not in politicians but in the hands of farmers themselves.

Virtually every marketing innovation which farmers have debated over the past several years will be possible under this new law. In a nutshell, that is what Bill C-4 is all about, empowering producers, enshrining democratic authority which has never existed before, providing new accountability, new flexibility and responsiveness, and positioning farmers to shape the kind of wheat board they want for the future.

Mr. Preston Manning (Leader of the Opposition, Ref.)

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the debate on Bill C-4, an act to amend the Canadian Wheat Board Act and other acts. In doing so I have two purposes.

The first is to draw the attention of hon. members, in particular members from urban ridings, to the importance of agricultural reform. Second, to express my disappointment that the bill before us is such a pale and timid imitation of what is required to prepare the Canadian Wheat Board and to equip Canadian grain growers to succeed in the 21st century.

There was a time when a majority of the members of the House had rural and agricultural backgrounds. That is now not the case. There was a time when at least two or three of the leaders in the House would have come from farm backgrounds. That is now not the case. In fact, of the five party leaders in the House, I am the only one that actually grew up on a farm. I trust hon. members will forgive me if I engage for a moment in a little nostalgia before turning to the subject matter of the bill.

My grandfather on my father's side homesteaded in Saskatchewan at the turn of the century. He broke prairie sod with oxen south of Rosetown, Saskatchewan. With his three sons he went through the technological transformation of the agricultural industry, from ploughing with oxen, to ploughing with horses, to the old days of steam machines, to the days of gasoline and diesel tractors. He also went through the economic and political transformation of the agricultural economy, from the homesteading days of unregulated markets through the period of exploitation by the railways and the grain companies, to the agricultural reform period of the twenties and the thirties. That established the pools, ultimately resulting in the creation of the Canadian Wheat Board and the foundations of the current grain handling, production and marketing systems.

My father entered politics in Alberta during the depression. Throughout the years that he was a cabinet minister and the premier of Alberta we operated a dairy farm east of the city of Edmonton. We operated a farm that milked about 70 cows. We went through the evolution of supply management and the transformation from hand milking to mechanical milking, from stanchion barns to loafing barns with milking parlours, all the time subject to the cost-price squeeze that has become characteristic of trying to operate a family farm.

I recount this to say that almost all of us, no matter what we now do, if we go back far enough, will find family roots in the agriculture industry. I am also reminded that no matter how far away we may now be from the farm, if we are still in the habit of eating three times a day, we have a vested interest in the state of agriculture and in agricultural reform.

Therefore, I hope that when bills like this are brought before us and when agriculture questions are asked in the House, members from urban ridings, like me, will not simply turn glassy eyed and ignore what is being proposed or what is said. I trust that we will continue to give agriculture and members from predominantly rural communities the attention that their traditions, industries and concerns deserve in this country.

I would like to turn to the subject of the reform of the Canadian Wheat Board. No federal political party holds more grassroots, public political meetings in the west than Reform, meetings at which this subject has been discussed at length for years. If I can briefly survey what we have found over the last number of years it can be summed up in three positions.

First, there are those who would abolish the wheat board. There are those who favour doing away completely with the Canadian Wheat Board. They point out that the whole world is moving toward a more market driven free trade in the agricultural and food product sector. They maintain that the trend cannot be arrested nor should it be arrested and that in that environment the Canadian Wheat Board is a monopolistic anachronism. This is not the position of the Reform Party but we are aware that that position exists among some producers.

Second, there are those who want to keep the Canadian Wheat Board essentially as it is or as it was. Many of these are older producers who remember the exploitation of farmers by the grain companies and the railways in the early days of the west. Many of these are producers who are uncomfortable in having to deal with the complex and ever-changing market forces of the international grain trade. They believe the future prosperity of the grain farmer lies in the direction of following marketing principles that have served well in the past.

It is not the position of the official opposition that the Canadian Wheat Board should remain as it is or as it was. We are convinced that many of the old marketing principles, however valid they might have been in the past, are no longer a reliable guide to capturing the markets of the future.

There is a third option and this is the option favoured by the official opposition and by an increasing number of producers. That option is to fundamentally reform the Canadian Wheat Board to make it more market sensitive and more accountable: more sensitive to a freer, more diverse, more competitive market and trading environment, and more accountable not to the government and the minister but to the consumers and producers it is intended to serve. This is the position of the Reform Party and the opposition.

When we look at the bill we see a feeble attempt to appear to be reforming the Canadian Wheat Board without any real or substantive changes required to make real reform a reality. Only a government and a minister hopelessly committed to the status quo would regard the tinkering in the bill as substantive change, to use the words of the minister. The minister tries to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, a feat beyond the competence of this minister.

My colleague, the member for Prince George—Peace River, and other Reform members, will discuss the defects of the bill in detail and will present some real reform alternatives. The bottom line of our analysis is that Bill C-4 fails to improve the market sensitivity of the Canadian Wheat Board and fails to substantially improve the marketing options open to producers.

The bottom line of our analysis is that it fails to significantly improve the accountability of Canadian Wheat Board producers in the manner that is being demanded by producers and required for the 21st century.

Because of the importance of grain marketing to Canada, especially in the west, I urge all members to give the bill the attention it deserves and to take counsel from the members among us speaking particularly from rural and agricultural ridings.

For the foregoing reasons which will be expanded by my colleagues, I urge members to defeat the bill, to send it back to the minister and the department, and to demand a real Canadian Wheat Board reform act suitable for preparing the board and the producers it serves to cope with the demands of the 21st century.

Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien (Frontenac—Mégantic, BQ)

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak this morning on Bill C-4, formerly C-72. Thanks to the lack of foresight by the government during the 35th Parliament, we have to partially repeat the work the hon. members had done in this House on Bill C-72.

First of all, it must be made perfectly clear that the Canadian Wheat Board we are today trying to modernize, to update for the year 2000 and beyond, affects the grain producers of Quebec only very slightly. In reality, the Canadian Wheat Board is important in four provinces: Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and part of British Columbia.

Unlike the Reform Party, the Bloc Quebecois will vote in favour of Bill C-4, because we find it a reasonable attempt to modernize the Canadian Wheat Board, its board of directors in particular.

Thanks to the contributions by the Bloc Quebecois members sitting on the Agriculture and Agri-Food Committee, we have managed to get the number of directors elected by the grain producers themselves raised to 10. Before that, the good old federal government, with all of its great foresight, and particularly with its great generosity, was the one making the appointments. Obviously, we always tried to select the best, but the best is usually an acquaintance or a friend, someone who has done us a favour in the past.

For example, the government has just appointed Mr. Justice Michel Bastarache, a colleague of the Prime Minister, the former chairman of the yes committee in the 1992 referendum on the Charlottetown accord and a great friend of this country's federalists. Our fine Prime Minister, the member for Saint-Maurice, propelled this judge into a seat on the supreme court and it will be this judge who decides on Quebec's right to sovereignty.

In the riding next to mine, the very beautiful riding of Beauce, the member, Gilles Bernier, was an independent. In order to free this riding for a Liberal member, Mr. Bernier was also given an appointment. Although he had no previous experience, the government appointed him ambassador to Haiti.

When I was relatively young, the Trudeau government appointed the Créditiste member for the riding of Richmond—Arthabaska, my friend Lionel beaudoin, to the Canadian Wheat Board. A byelection was then called, and Alain Tardif was elected, and sat in the House until 1984, when the Conservative Party arrived in force. Funnily enough, he too was appointed a judge, but with the tax court.

You can see how it works. Where is the usual process for appointing people to the important jobs?

From now on, only five members of the board of directors of the Canadian Wheat Board will be appointed by the Governor General in Council, the ten others will be elected democratically by the grain growers as a whole. The majority of the board of directors will be elected—a significant change—and under the control of the producers themselves.

Four appointments will be made by the Governor General in Council, that is friends once more. They will not be members of the Reform Party, but certainly friends of the Liberal régime will be sitting on the board.

Fundraisers.

Mr. Jean-Guy Chrétien

Fundraisers perhaps, as we saw in Quebec in March and in previous months.

A major difference—and I want to say a word about it—concerns the appointment of the president. The governor in council will have to consult the 14 other directors already sitting on the board in order to appoint number 15, who will become the president.

We in the agriculture committee managed, thanks—and I say it in all humility—to my intervention and also to the support of my friend and colleague, the hon. member for Malpeque, to include in the bill a provision whereby the remuneration is fixed by resolution of the board.

So, if a nitwit is appointed, board directors will have the power to decide that this person's salary will be one dollar per year. This way, the nitwit will not hang around for too long and will quickly give up his position. The board of directors will also have the power to include or exclude certain grain categories.

Let us take the case of canola, for example. Canola is currently not covered by the Canadian Wheat Board. Of course, should canola producers wish to join the Canadian Wheat Board, three very specific rules will apply. However, the most important decision, the biggest hurdle, will be to obtain a mandate from registered canola producers. A vote will be held, but it will not be by show of hands, since some people can then move quickly and vote two or three times. There will only be one vote per producer.

If a majority vote yes and the other two conditions, which I will deal with later, are met, then all canola growers will have to join the Canadian Wheat Board.

That is not what some members of the official opposition were hoping for, which is for producers to join the Canadian Wheat Board one year because it suits them, and leave the next year, because they were able to sell their grain on their own. In other words, producers will not be allowed to join the commission when prices are down and then to opt out when prices go up. Either you're in or you're out. Either all producers join the Canadian Wheat Board or they're out.

In closing, I would like, of course, to congratulate the new Minister of Agriculture on his appointment. For once, the Prime Minister brought in someone who knows agriculture well. I find it unfortunate however that the responsibility for the Canadian Wheat Board was given to another minister, who no longer heads the Department of Agriculture. Like all members of this House, I think this is most unfortunate. Even among government members there is discontent.

What is the rationale? When the current minister was agriculture minister, he was naturally put in charge of the Canadian Wheat Board. Like the Canadian Dairy Commission, the wheat board falls under Agriculture Canada, not under External Affairs or Justice. This decision is fraught with consequences the Prime Minister will have to live with for years to come.

To conclude, members of the Bloc Quebecois will support this government initiative, which they believe is a step forward. It may be a small step, but a step in the right direction nonetheless in modernizing the Canadian Wheat Board.

Mr. Dick Proctor (Palliser, NDP)

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to be able to speak to Bill C-4, the amendments to the Canadian Wheat Board.

I am proud to serve the area of Palliser. It is an area of Saskatchewan that includes all of Moose Jaw, a portion of Regina and a good swath of farming country that surrounds those two fine cities.

The constituency of Palliser is named in honour of a former British army captain, Captain John Palliser, who was sent out 140 years ago in 1857 on an expedition to southern Saskatchewan to see whether the climate was hospitable for agriculture. Captain Palliser became famous, or perhaps infamous, for saying that the region was “unfit for human abode”.

Captain Palliser was wrong. There have been developments in agricultural technology that he could not possibly have foreseen. The Regina plains he found so inhospitable that many years ago have now become one of the best grain growing regions in the world.

The climate can be as harsh as he described it, but people in Palliser and throughout the prairies have used the tools of community and co-operation to overcome the obstacles of climate and distance. The Canadian Wheat Board is one of those tools of co-operation. It has served western farmers well since 1935 and they made it clear in the barley plebiscite last February that they want to keep the Canadian Wheat Board as a single desk seller for their grain.

The minister in charge of the wheat board introduced amendments to the act in December of last year. Those amendments were sent quickly to the agriculture committee. In fact our caucus at that time in the 35th Parliament believed that the reference to committee was too hasty. We did not understand the minister's great hurry and we thought there should have been more opportunity for debate in the House prior to the referral. Len Taylor, our former agriculture critic from The Battlefords—Meadow Lake, made known his and our party's unhappiness with the government's procedure at that time.

I note that in Bill C-4 the minister is once again making the same speedy reference to committee and again we are concerned about that. We feel that members of the House would have valuable contributions to make in the debate prior to the legislation being referred to committee. We do not understand the minister's undue haste.

In any event, today the wheat board legislation is back before the House as Bill C-4. Our caucus has looked carefully at the bill and we are pleased to see that it makes some important concessions based on amendments proposed by the agriculture committee that I referred to earlier. I want to review the most important of those changes and to indicate where our caucus can support them and where we feel further amendments are required.

Most important, Bill C-4 contains an inclusion clause. That means that grains can now be added or included as opposed to what was in Bill C-72 when they could only be deleted or excluded. This is a major change and a concession on the minister's behalf. It was the wise course to take and the right thing to have done.

We do however have some concerns about how the process to achieve the inclusion of a new grain would be triggered. It is not clear to us which farm organizations would have the right to ask for such an inclusion. I flag this for the minister to suggest that we do have questions and that we may have suggestions to offer.

Second there are also some welcomed changes in governance. Bill C-4 stipulates as the minister said that 10 of the 15 members of the board of directors are to be elected by farmers with the minister naming the remaining five. The directors will now choose their own chair rather than leave that power with the minister. These are improvements over Bill C-72 but we do not believe that they go far enough yet. We have no problem with the government naming some members to the board of directors.

The government will continue after all to guarantee the wheat board's initial price on grain purchased from farmers. Our caucus insisted that the government continue these financial guarantees and we are pleased that they have been maintained. If the government is going to have considerable financial exposure, then it is only reasonable that it have some window into the board's operations.

However under Bill C-4 the minister maintains the authority to choose the president of the board of directors, a person who will double as the wheat board's chief executive officer. Our caucus opposes this. We believe this gives the government too much control over a board of directors that should really be accountable ultimately to the farmers and it gives the government too much control over the day to day operations of the wheat board itself.

In contrast to the proposal, we believe that the board of directors should have the authority to choose the president and chief executive officer and we urge the minister to make this amendment. We believe that the federal government will have enough influence by its appointment of one-third of the 15 members of the board of directors.

There are those who insist that the government should have no participation on the board of directors. Too often these are the same people who would like to sever all connections before the government and the board. This is a cynical exercise using the rhetoric of democracy as a tool to do away with the wheat board itself.

We believe that the minister has addressed an important issue on the inclusion of grains and has made some improvements on the issue of governance. However there is a third area of concern to us in which the minister has made no concession and that is in the area of cash purchases of grain.

For decades the Canadian Wheat Board has earned the confidence of farmers because they knew that they would all be treated equitably in the purchase of their grain. The board bought grain from farmers at similar prices and under similar conditions. This practice known as price pooling has been the bedrock on which the Canadian Wheat Board was built.

Both Bill C-72 and now Bill C-4 the son of C-72, would give the board the ability to buy grains from anyone, anywhere at any time. This in effect undermines the principle of price pooling. We believe that it would also undermine the farmers' confidence in the board and thereby diminish the board's credibility and effectiveness.

The minister argues that these arrangements would allow the board to adapt more quickly to market developments especially when the board needs a certain grain quickly and supplies are not immediately forthcoming. While there is logic in this reasoning, we fear that the board could in the search for short term flexibility undermine its longer term credibility with farmers. At the very least we would want the legislation to be quite specific as to when the board could resort to cash buying.

We in this caucus believe that it is time to end the uncertainty which has surrounded the Canadian Wheat Board. This uncertainty has been foisted onto the board and onto western farmers by the actions of some of our trading competitors, but what is even more damaging are the activities of that vocal minority of farmers who would do away with the board altogether.

Although the Leader of the Opposition did not refer to what his party is going to propose, undoubtedly it will be a form of dual marketing. We suggest that dual marketing is no more a solution in the agricultural area than two tier health care is in the medicare field.

Despite our lingering concerns about this government's longer term trade agenda, we believe it is best to get on with Bill C-4. This bill makes some important concessions and improvements from its previous incarnation based on amendments proposed by the agriculture committee in the last Parliament. Our caucus supports Bill C-4 in principle but we reserve the option of making further amendments to this legislation in committee.

Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon—Souris, PC)

Mr. Speaker, it is the first time I have had the opportunity to speak in the House for an extended period of time so I would like to congratulate you and the other members of the Speaker's chair. I sit beside you and we have a good working relationship. I expect that will continue.

I would also like to thank the electorate of Brandon—Souris for putting me in this wonderful position in the House and for being able to speak today on Bill C-4 on their behalf.

I would like to begin debate on the bill which is now before us with the prophetic words of one hon. member of Parliament. He was a member of the Progressive Conservative Party and represented my riding over 40 years ago. He was the Hon. Walter Dinsdale. His words on the subject matter outlined in Bill C-4 are very relevant for someone who spoke on the issue 40 years ago:

Wheat is still the economic lodestar of the prairies—. Wheat made possible the building of Canada's first transcontinental railway, and I sometimes think the construction of the CPR was the last major effort on the part of this dominion government relative to the prairies.

It was also the rapid development of our wheat economy that made possible the great waves of immigration in the early years of this century and opened up that part of Canada to popular settlement.

Important as the wheat trade undoubtedly is, it nevertheless leaves our prairie economy in a particularly vulnerable position because it means that we are tied to a one-product economy. When disturbances inevitably occur in world economy and are reflected in our internal economy, it is the agricultural industry that is the first to suffer.

In this regard I would like to add, Mr. Speaker, that the wheat board has been particularly effective in smoothing out extreme swings in the economic cycle. The only difficulty with the wheat board is that it has tended to become used as an instrument of political manipulation, and wheat policies have been adapted to the welfare of the party in power.

I would add, though, that marketing boards do not necessarily increase the price to the producer. They merely iron out some of the wilder fluctuations. In the final analysis it is demand that determines price.

It is ironic reciting these words on an issue which was brought to the attention of the then Liberal government over 40 years ago by a Progressive Conservative member of Parliament. Is it not funny that 40 years later the current Liberal government continues to put a deaf ear to the concerns of western members of Parliament. It is sad how little things have changed around here. It is really sad for the producers who have to deal with a federal government which is so adamant on preventing change when it concerns the interests of farmers across western Canada.

I appreciate the fact that the government in power has a very difficult issue facing it today. I have spoken to many stakeholders across the country and I can say that they have very divergent needs. Some say to get rid of the board entirely and we recognize who those people are. There is also the range on the other side which says to leave it exactly the way it is, the status quo with no changes whatsoever. We recognize where that comes from.

There is in the middle however a number of stakeholders, a number of producers, who would like to see change, some of them within the Canadian Wheat Board system and some of them on a voluntary basis, so they would have the right to choose in which fashion they would market their grains.

The government today had an opportunity to embrace change going into the 21st century. It had an opportunity to show leadership with respect to marketing western Canadian grains. In fact with Bill C-4 before us right now, it has failed to show that leadership. The government has tinkered with the existing Canadian Wheat Board.

I am not naive enough politically to believe that we on this side of the House are going to change the direction of government. In saying that, when I came to this House I said to my constituents that I wanted to bring positive criticism, constructive criticism to the government. I would like to in the next little while show some of that positive criticism.

The first issue I would like to deal with in Bill C-4 before us today is that of the inclusion clause. I had the opportunity to actually speak to the commissioners of the Canadian Wheat Board. When I asked the question why must there be an inclusion clause to include canola, flax, rye and oats, the answer I received was if there is going to be an exclusion clause, then we should have an inclusion clause.

Never did they speak to the ability to market better. Never did they speak that it would be better for the producers. Never did they speak to the fact that it was the best way to market in the world today. They simply said because there is exclusion, there should be inclusion. This is not good enough. The majority of shareholders and stakeholders in agriculture do not want inclusion of those crops.

On the board of directors, it is a very good move considering the legislation that is before us. There should well be an elected board of directors. I agree with that. Of the 15 board of directors who have been identified, all 15 should be elected by the producers, not appointed by government.

They are going to say “but the government has an involvement in this financially”. In the Ontario Wheat Board right now, the government has involvement financially. All 10 board of directors are elected by producers and not appointed by government. There should be an elected board of directors, not one that is appointed by government.

In saying that as well, the CEO form of governance is great. I do not believe nor have I ever believed in management by committee or by commissions. I believe the CEO form of governance is a good direction this government has taken. In saying that, I also believe that the CEO should be appointed by the board of directors, not by government.

If the CEO is given the proper opportunity and the proper vision to plan for where we are going in the 21st century, I believe it is a step in the right direction. Give the chief executive officer the opportunity to put his or her positions forward on the basis of the board, not on the basis of politics.

The last thing I would like to speak to right now is that of accountability. The Canadian Wheat Board in the opinion of the stakeholders has not been accountable to the producers. It is a closed shop. They do not have the opportunity of getting the information that we would like to see.

The Canadian Wheat Board along with CSIS are the two organizations that are not affected by the access to information legislation. That is not right. There has to be transparency. There has to be openness and there has to be accountability by the Canadian Wheat Board to the people that they serve, the producers of western Canada. That accountability can come with a chief executive officer who is appointed by an elected board, and with the elected board.

In closing, there are improvements within the existing Bill C-4 over previous legislation on the Canadian Wheat Board. What I would like to see are those changes I talked about previously as well as the possibility and the opportunity of perhaps some voluntary co-operation of producers with the Canadian Wheat Board, an opt in and an opt out opportunity for producers. This has not been talked about. It has not been discussed.

Trust me, when it gets to committee I am sure there will be plenty of time to debate these very, very positive and constructive criticisms of this bill.