Hon. Ray Hnatyshyn (Minister of State (Government House Leader)):

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I just want to indicate before we proceed with this legislation that the Minister of Justice (Mr. Crosbie) is just coming from Cabinet where we have been discussing matters; he will be here in a moment. I believe he is coming in now, so I guess we can get on with the business.

Hon. John C. Crosbie (Minister of Justice) moved

that Bill C-3, an Act to amend various Acts as a consequence of the reconstitution of the courts in Ontario and Manitoba, be read the second time and referred to the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

He said: Mr. Speaker, it is very good of you to be so patient and understanding at such an early stage in what I am sure will be your most eminent career as Speaker.

The legislation before us is necessary because of initiatives taken by two provinces, Ontario and Manitoba. It has to do with the reorganization of the courts in those two provinces. In putting forward this legislation, we are responding to requests from those two provinces to bring our laws into conformity with their legislation.

In the case of Ontario, they are reconstituting the County and District Courts into a single District Court of Ontario. In the case of Manitoba, this reflects the merger of the County Courts in Manitoba with the Court of Queen's Bench which was effective on July 1, 1984.

These amendments, as anybody who has read the Bill will agree, are largely technical in nature. Their purpose is to delete obsolete references in federal legislation to courts and judicial officers in those two provinces. The amendments, you will also note, are contained in the schedule to the Bill. With respect to Ontario, they have a new Courts of Justice Act there, as I say, which provides for a province-wide District Court. There are two amendments that might require a little further explanation.

There is an amendment to Section 34 of the Judges Act which preserves the present requirement that judges reside within the county or district to which they are appointed or assigned, subject to a discretion in the Governor-in-Council to permit residence elsewhere of the judges of the District Court. It is preferable for a judge to reside within his own county or district.

I see the Hon. Member for Vancouver-Kingsway (Mr. Waddell) is back in the House. It is a bit of a surprise to see him back here. Nevertheless, I welcome him back. I note with some interest that he is not the justice critic. The justice critic is a colleague of his from the lower mainland. I hope the lower mainland will not be any lower than it was in the last Parliament.

Mr. Deans:

Unlike the Tories, we wanted someone who knew what they were talking about.

Mr. Crosbie:

I am glad to see that he has been re-elevated to the justice level after his experience with the issue of prostitution.

Mr. Deans:

Tell us about the economic statement tonight.

Mr. Crosbie:

I would sooner discuss what I am discussing because this is what I am supposed to discuss. I am a member of the silent service. I am going to keep strictly within my own area of jurisdiction.

This is a matter of tremendous national importance. It is important that a judge reside in his own county or district. Please don't try to divert me.

Another very significant part of this legislation is that we are amending the Railway Act because the Province of Ontario has abolished the office of clerk of the peace and has requested the transfer of the record-keeping functions presently exercised by that officer under the Railway Act to the office of the Crown Attorney. If you understand that, you are far ahead of me.

With respect to Manitoba, all references to the former County Courts are deleted and now the references are to the Court of Queen's Bench of Manitoba. One thing that might be noted as well in the amendments is the repeal of paragraph 21 (5) (d) of the Judges Act which presently prohibits the payment of travelling allowances to a judge of the Court of Queen's Bench for attendance at the City of Winnipeg. Since these courts have merged, a number of judges are required to reside in judicial centres other than Winnipeg, so we are repealing that provision to permit the payment of validly incurred travelling expenses by judges of the court for their attendance at the capital.

November 8, 1984

Courts Amendment Act

All of these amendments are deemed to have come into effect in Manitoba on July 1, 1984. This will permit the filing of all legal documents and so on without any confusion in the court process. That is the purpose of this Bill.

I would like on this first occasion on which I am speaking to the House as Minister of Justice to make a few general points as to the way I hope to approach the responsibilities of this office.

Mr. Deans:

Did you clear this with Erik?

Mr. Crosbie:

I clear everything I do with Erik. However, I am not saying what Erik that is. I have an Erik in my office. As a matter of fact, the Hon. House Leader for the New Democratic Party often gives me an earache.

Mr. Deans:

The ache you give me isn't in my ear.

Mr. Crosbie:

I am not going to comment on what happens to other parts of the gentleman's anatomy. They are all unmentionable.

This is my first occasion to address the House as Minister of Justice. I want all Hon. Members to know that I am following in a tremendous tradition. Sir John A. Macdonald was our first Minister of Justice. I do not say this to make any other Members of the House nervous; it just happens to be a fact that Sir John A. Macdonald was the first Minister of Justice of this country. The Hon. House Leader for the NDP would be interested in the fact that one of that Minister's first accomplishments was legalizing trade unions in the country. He brought in the legislation that made it possible for trade unions to function in this country.

We are a caring Party. We are a Party that is responsible for the legitimization of the entire trade union movement.

Hear, hear!

Mr. Crosbie:

One hundred years before the poor House Leader for the NDP appeared on the scene, we legalized trade unions in this country. He would not be here today if we had not done so.

Mr. Deans:

I beg your pardon? What has that to do with anything?

Mr. Crosbie:

Mr. Speaker, my predecessor, Sir John A.-I am Sir John C., he was Sir John A.-was responsible as well for the formation of the Northwest Mounted Police. These were two of his accomplishments while he was Minister of Justice.

It was a Conservative Minister of Justice, Sir John Thompson, who, from 1885 to 1892, codified the Canadian criminal law. The Criminal Code was brought in under his tenure as Minister of Justice. Of course, he became Prime Minister as well if only for a few hours or a few days.

It was a Conservative Minister of Justice, Davie Fulton, who of course is still a distinguished member of the Canadian

community living in British Columbia, who brought in the first Bill of Rights for Canada in 1960. It was a Conservative Minister of Justice, Senator Jacques Flynn, a member of the other House, who initiated the criminal law review in 1979. The Hon. House Leader of the NDP will be interested in the fact that that was the first fundamental review of the Criminal Code undertaken since the Criminal Code came into effect in 1893. That review is still under way. The Law Reform Commission of Canada has had much to do with the Criminal Code review that is under way and with the changes that were introduced in the House some months ago. Many of these changes will be reintroduced.

If it is permissible, Mr. Speaker, I might just outline some of the things to which I hope the House will attend while I am Minister of Justice over the period of the next three or four years.

Mr. Waddell:

Conservative Ministers of Justice also hanged Louis Riel.

Mr. Crosbie:

I knew someone from the other side would bring that up. I believe this year is the 100th anniversary of that sad occasion.

Shortly, Mr. Speaker, I will be introducing some changes to the Criminal Code which I hope the House will find possible to pass quickly. These will be non-controversial changes and many of them will be procedural changes to the Criminal Code which are long overdue.

After the Christmas break, we will be introducing other amendments to the Criminal Code in more controversial areas. For example, the area of soliciting and the problem of prostitution will have to be dealt with by legislation brought before this House within the next few months. We are now waiting for the report of the committee of Mr. Paul Fraser which was appointed some months ago to investigate and report in connection with the fields of prostitution and pornography.

We have received a report from Professor Badgley on child abuse which is another area of concern, of course, to Canadians. If any Member would like a copy of that 1,300-page report, we can supply that Member with a copy. We will have to deal with that area.

The area of hate propaganda will be dealt with and those amendments will come after Christmas as well. Provisions or new suggestions with respect to impaired and drunken driving will be introduced to the House. These are all issues that will hopefully be dealt with by Hon. Members of this House in the next six months, and I hope that we will make progress during the next year. Other amendments to the Criminal Code will be brought in after that. Hopefully, if the plan works, we will have a completely revised Criminal Code in place in Canada at the end of the next three or four years. This will require much attention and work from the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

November 8, 1984

[DOT] (UI5)

In addition to these areas, as Minister of Justice I hope to be introducing to the House, within the next several months, suggested amendments to the Divorce Act. Particular attention will be given to improving the law with respect to the enforcement of maintenance orders. This will ensure that people who are awarded maintenance, and who badly need to be supported, can receive that support in a more effective manner, or can enforce the orders for maintenance and support that they obtain. We also hope to improve the mediation process in connection with the whole area of divorce. In addition to the legislation in that area, I hope to keep the NDP critic busy.

We will be bringing in legislation immediately after Christmas which will deal with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which was enacted as part of our Constitution in 1982. That legislation will amend many of the statutes of Canada because of inconsistencies with the provisions of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. In addition, there are areas of great importance in which it is not clear whether particular provisions of the present Canadian legal system are in violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I will be asking the House to consider those areas and to give advice on areas of great difficulty and subtlety. It should be an extremely interesting and important subject of discussion in committee, as well as in the House. As I have said, there will be legislation introduced in the House as soon as possible after the Christmas break.

I am also charged with the responsibility of suggesting to the Government policies and positions with respect to the issue of the constitutional conference, which must be held by April 17 of next year, on aboriginal issues. I am currently involved in becoming properly briefed and understanding what the issues are, in order to prepare for that conference. My colleague the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (Mr. Crombie) and myself have already met. As well, we will be meeting with the provinces and representatives of aboriginal groups to prepare for that most important constitutional conference.

How do I want to approach the justice area? As I see it, it is largely an area which is non-partisan. That is the way in which I intend to approach it. In other words, if anyone has suggestions, no matter who they might be-they might even be a member of the NDP, not to say the Liberal Party-the suggestions will be treated on their merits. Of course, I would be surprised if their suggestions have any merits, but it will all be dealt with in a non-partisan manner. If there are any suggestions from the Conservative caucus, of course, they will be treated in the same manner.

Seriously speaking, I view most of this area as being one which is not very partisan, and I would want to approach it in that sense. I would be amenable to changes which are introduced if they appear to be sensible and reasonable. Nothing could be more sensible and reasonable than that. I am prepared to listen to critics of both the NDP and Liberal Parties, and if their suggestions are worth-while, I would certainly be prepared to make changes in accordance therewith. I am

Courts Amendment Act

interested in seeing the law reformed and changed, but only after it has been given sufficient thought.

I do not want to rush at things or endanger individual rights because there is a certain evil present in society. I do not want to change the law too rapidly in order to try to eradicate that particular anti-social behaviour and in so doing endanger everyone's individual rights. We must be extremely careful of what we do in the areas of pornography, child abuse, hate propaganda, soliciting and the like, in order to ensure that we take a balanced approach and act with concern and compassion, that we do not panic in our desire to improve society and to do away with the social evil. I want to be careful in this regard as I am a believer, Mr. Speaker, in individual rights, particularly in these areas.

I will be asking the House of Commons standing committee for its views and opinions on matters which go before it or on matters to which it might be referred.

With respect to judges, Mr. Speaker, I will be introducing amendments to the Judges Act as well later on. I am now considering the question of salaries and the emoluments of judges. There was a report made by Mr. Otto Lang in committee about a year and a half ago, I believe, with respect to statutory provisions concerning compensation for judges and what should be done. No action was taken in connection with that report. Therefore, the issue of compensation for our judges who are appointed by the Government of Canada to the provincial Superior Courts, District and County Courts, as well as our own Federal Court, is a matter which must be dealt with by the House in the next few months as well.

I have to act, Mr. Speaker, as spokesman for our judges who are not in the position to act publicly, in any event, with respect to their own interests and concerns. They are appointed to the bench and cannot involve themselves in public debate or controversy. The position of the Minister of Justice, therefore, is that he must act as their representative and I intend to do so. If I feel that their needs are clear and that certain actions should be taken which are fair and equitable, even if they might be controversial and not popular with the public, I will put forward their case and ask the House to be sympathetic in its decision as to what should be done in connection with salaries and other provisions relating to the judges of this country, who have an extremely difficult task, Mr. Speaker, a task which has become of tremendously increased significance since we adopted the Constitution in 1982 and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Our judges have been given by the people of this country, or their representatives, tremendous powers to decide whether legislation is valid or invalid, whether or not it is in order and whether or not it corresponds with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We need, therefore, a first-class bench. We need first-class men and women appointed to the judiciary of this country who will act as our judges, and the events of the last several years have given that need even greater importance.

November 8, 1984

Courts Amendment Act

With respect to the appointment of judges, Mr. Speaker, I must say that I am interested in appointing nothing but first-class, qualified men and women as judges across this country. Everyone will be considered no matter what their beliefs might be. I intend to consult the provincial Attorneys General during the process of appointment of judges. They will not be ignored, as in some cases they were in the past. There will be a definite process of consultation with the provincial Attorneys General and Ministers of Justice before judicial appointments are made. There will be consultation, of course, with the Chief Justices of the courts and other colleagues, as well as Hon. Members of this House, in order to have their views as to people they think should be considered for judicial appointment. We will be happy to receive any suggestions, which we will look into and ensure that consideration is given.

Of course, we will continue the practice of referring those under consideration for judicial appointment to a committee of the Canadian Bar Association for review and evaluation. To date we have not made any judicial appointments but there will be some coming up in the immediate future, including an appointment to the Supreme Court of Canada which, of course, is very important.

Mr. Justice Ritchie has had to retire due to ill health. He would have retired by next June in any event, having reached the statutory age of 75, but because of the state of his health he has retired a few months earlier. I would like to congratulate him on his long judicial career in the Supreme Court of Canada. He was appointed by Prime Minister Diefenbaker and his Government in, I think, 1959 and has had a most distinguished judicial career. I well remember him as the federal counsel to the royal commission which investigated the terms of union between Newfoundland and Canada. I hope that Mr. Justice Ritchie's health will improve as he retires from the bench, and that he will have a long and healthy retirement having performed a great service to his fellow Canadians in his position on the Supreme Court of Canada in recent years.

In ending these few remarks, Mr. Speaker, I want to assure Members of the House that I am fully cognizant of the responsibility imposed on us to ensure the proper functioning of the judicial system. The courts are now the forum in which we are trying to define our contemporary social goals. They are there to arbitrate conflicting points of view which will be put forward on fundamental issues involving everyone in this country. They have a very difficult task and I will do what I can to assist them in the time that I am here as Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada. We are stressing co-operation with the provinces and I intend to see that there is co-operation and consultation with the provinces. I believe that the unpleasant situation which arose in Saskatchewan in recent years concerning the number of judges is about to be terminated. It should be resolved within the next several weeks, I am glad to say.

I just wanted to take this opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to outline some of the matters that will be coming before Members of the House in the justice area and the way that I will approach my task, non-partisan, fair and objective as ever. As any of the Members who have been here before will know, I always try to act objectively and in a non-partisan manner. I am sorry to see there is only a rump left on the other side who, of course, can testify to that.

Mr. Waddell:

Short-term pain for long-term gain.

Mr. Crosbie:

When I see that short-term rump opposite me, 40 on the left and 30 on the right, I must say it was much easier in this House when I was on the other side because I did not have to look at the NDP. We could ignore the fact that they were there. Now I am struck with the brutal reality of having to face them every day.