May 19, 1982

?

Some hon. Members:

Yea.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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LIB

Roderick Blaker (Assistant Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Blaker):

Those opposed will please say nay.

May 19, 1982

Energy, Mines and Resources

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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?

Some hon. Members:

Nay.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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LIB

Roderick Blaker (Assistant Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Blaker):

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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LIB

Roderick Blaker (Assistant Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Blaker):

Pursuant to Section (11) of Standing Order 75, the recorded division on the proposed motion stands deferred.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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LIB

Yvon Pinard (President of the Privy Council; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Hon. Yvon Pinard (for Mr. Lalonde) moved:

Motion No. 2

That Bill C-102, an act to amend the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources Act, be amended in Clause 1

(a) by striking out lines 37 to 41 of the French version at page 2 and substituting the following therefor:

"(7) II demeure entendu que ces societes ne peuvent constituer d'autres personnes morales dont I'acitivite principale n'est pas une des activites prevues au paragraphe (1)."

(b) by striking out lines 36 to 40 at page 2 and lines 1 to 3 at page 3 and substituting the following therefor:

"(8) The Minister shall, not later than the fifteenth sitting day of Parliament after a corporation has been incorporated under subsection (1), table or cause to be tabled in each House a statement giving the reasons for the incorporation of the corporation."

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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LIB

Dennis Dawson

Liberal

Mr. Dennis Dawson (Louis-Hebert):

Mr. Speaker, very briefly, I should like to point out first of all that in the notice of motion, the French version was printed on both sides by mistake, but in any case, the first part of this amendment, Mr. Speaker, is solely aimed at making the English and French version consistent by changing the wording, and that is achieved by the words "II demeure attendu"-

As to the second change, Mr. Speaker, its purpose is to make the text more consistent with the rest of the amendments to be introduced under Motion No. 3, and to ensure that when a Crown corporation is established by the minister, a statement giving the reasons for this decision is tabled in the House of Commons to inform members accordingly. I feel, Mr. Speaker, that this information will satisfy the requirements of the committee which was seeking to obtain as much information as possible, and as regards the possibility of discussing this issue on Motion No. 3, most of the committee's objectives will thus be satisfied.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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PC

Harvie Andre

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Harvie Andre (Calgary Centre):

Mr. Speaker, we certainly have no objection to this motion and concur with it. Putting in the proper French is something we agreed to in terms of the amendment to what is designated 6(8) at the bottom of page 2.

I point out that this amendment, which would have asked that when the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources (Mr. Lalonde) is creating a new Crown corporation and the bill has passed committee, that he make a statement in the House giving the reasons, thereby allowing the opportunity for a reply from the opposition, plus questioning. It was interesting how

that came about in committee, Mr. Speaker. There happened to be a little bit of background noise and two of the Liberal members accidentally voted with members on our side and, lo and behold, the amendment passed through! 1 am sure that the officials and the minister have taken them aside and chastised them properly for being so undiligent in their work as to actually agree to something suggested by the opposition.

However, that requirement upon the minister, that he actually make a statement in the House, that he stand up here and say why he should be incorporating a new corporation, apparently was too onerous an obligation to put upon the minister, so we have this amendment that he only make a statement or table a statement. This allows the officials to write the document for him and he can table it in the House. It saves the minister going through the onerous duties and responsibilities of actually reading the statement and then submitting to questions in the House. We all appreciate that that is really an undue obligation to put upon a minister of the Crown, that he go to that effort. Of course, we will agree to any facility that will let the bureaucrats get their work tabled in here quickly without having to interfere with the minister and cause him to have to read what the officials have written for him, and perhaps defend them in reply to questions in the House.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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LIB

Roderick Blaker (Assistant Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Blaker):

Is the House ready for the question?

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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?

Some hon. Members:

Question.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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LIB

Roderick Blaker (Assistant Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Blaker):

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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?

Some hon. Members:

Agreed.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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LIB

Roderick Blaker (Assistant Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Blaker):

I declare the motion carried.

Motion (Mr. Lalonde) agreed to.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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NDP

Ian Gardiner Waddell

New Democratic Party

Mr. Waddell:

Mr. Speaker, there is a government amendment that deals with amending Clause 1. I would like to seek unanimous consent to introduce one of our amendments.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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PC

Harvie Andre

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Andre:

It is a one-clause bill.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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NDP

Ian Gardiner Waddell

New Democratic Party

Mr. Waddell:

This is to Clause 1, line 18, page 3.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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PC

Harvie Andre

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Andre:

We have a motion also.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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NDP

Ian Gardiner Waddell

New Democratic Party

Mr. Waddell:

I understand that my friends to the right in the Conservative Party have a motion, so perhaps we could deal with that. Perhaps I could just give notice that the better way of dealing with our amendment would be to deal with it after the Conservative motion is dealt with and before the government amendment. Because our amendment refers to the original wording of the bill as it is and not the new wording that the government may bring in.

May 19, 1982

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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LIB

Roderick Blaker (Assistant Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Blaker):

The Chair is aware that the hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway (Mr. Waddell) will seek the unanimous consent of the House to put an amendment. The way that the amendments are now ordered provides that the amendment put forth by the hon. member for Well-ington-Dufferin-Simcoe (Mr. Beatty) will be first put to the House and then a government amendment put forth by the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources (Mr. Lalonde). The only suggestion 1 can make is that while the amendment by the hon. member for Wellington-Dufferin-Simcoe is under debate, the hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway might want to arrange the matter as to the order of debate on these motions.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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PC

Harvie Andre

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Harvie Andre (for Mr. Beatty) moved:

That Bill C-102, an act to amend the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources Act be amended in Clause 1

(A) By adding immediately after line 3 at page 3 the following:

"7. No corporation incorporated under subsection 6(1) or this section, or of which any shares have been acquired by the Minister thereunder, shall, without the approval of the Governor in Council,

(a) procure the incorporation of a corporation or

(b) acquire shares of a corporation which by virtue of such acquisition would become a subsidiary, within the meaning of the Canada Business Corporations Act, of the corporation.

(B) By striking out lines 4 and 5 at page 3 and substituting the following therefor:

8. (1) An order of the Governor in Council under subsection 6(1) or section 7 shall be laid".

He said: Mr. Speaker, the intent of this amendment is to provide for the incorporation of subsidiary corporations the same kind of check, minor though it is, that exists in regard to incorporating a new Crown corporation. That is, Mr. Speaker, the gist of this bill when it is fully amended is that the minister, if he wishes to set up a new Crown corporation, must first table a statement in the House of Commons indicating the reasons for the formation of the Crown corporation. There is the ability through a negative resolution, or a positive resolution if introduced by the government, or there will after this amendment is passed, for the House to cause a debate to be held, a three-hour debate with a vote at the end, either concurring or not concurring in the establishment of this Crown corporation.

However, Mr. Speaker, because of the ability of a corporation then to incorporate a subsidiary corporation, we do- without the benefit of this amendment-have the possibility that a Crown corporation could be set up. Whatever minor checks the system provides now in terms of a negative resolution and a statement from the minister, and so on, would be there, but that Crown corporation could set up unlimited subsidiary corporations. Those subsidiary corporations could be established without the knowledge of Parliament, without any indication to Parliament as to the reason for their establishment. Those subsidiary corporations could have the full range of powers of the main Crown corporation. They could undertake debt obligations on behalf of the Crown. They could undertake all manner of activities that could serve as a pork barrel and could serve any number of purposes without there

Energy, Mines and Resources

being any way in which this House could even know what they are doing, let alone hold them accountable.

So I would ask government members and the New Democratic Party members to give serious consideration to this motion. It is not going to hamstring the government in any way, shape or form. It simply provides that if we are setting up Crown corporations, whether directly or by way of subsidiary, we at least have the same kind of check, minor though it is, for both types of Crown corporation. This amendment would guarantee that, Mr. Speaker, and in no way, shape or form restrict the government from pursuing the fundamental intent of Bill C-102, offensive as it is to us in a general sense.

We nonetheless would request of the government that if they choose, and they obviously do, to proceed with Bill C-102 and this ability to create Crown corporations, then at least let us acknowledge that in order to be truly honest about the amount of accountability and openness we will have, we must also include subsidiary corporations. This amendment would take care of that problem.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES ACT MEASURE TO AMEND
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May 19, 1982