June 9, 1981

LIB

Cyril Lloyd Francis (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

All those opposed will please say nay.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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?

Some hon. Members:

Nay.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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LIB

Cyril Lloyd Francis (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than Jive members having risen:

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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LIB

Cyril Lloyd Francis (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Following the procedure previously outlined, the division stands deferred on motion No. 7.

Motion No. 8; shall I dispense?

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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PC

Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Lambert:

No, please read it. I want to be sure this is the last version put in by the minister. There were three versions, and I want to hear which one it is.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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LIB

Cyril Lloyd Francis (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

The hon. member has made his point.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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LIB

Pierre Bussières (Minister of State (Finance))

Liberal

Hon. Pierre Bussieres (for Mr. MacEachen) moved:

Motion No. 8.

That Bill C-57, an act to amend the Excise Tax Act and the Excise Act and to provide for a revenue tax in respect of petroleum and gas, be amended in clause 7 by striking out lines 11 to 40 at page 9 and substituting the following therefor: "(2) The excise taxes imposed by subsection (1) shall be adjusted

(a) on the first day of April, 1981, so that the taxes imposed in the five month period commencing on that day are equal to the amount obtained

(i) by multiplying

(A) the taxes set out in subsection (1) by

(B) the ratio, adjusted or altered in such manner as the governor in council may, by regulation, prescribe and rounded to the nearest one-thousandth or, where the ratio is equidistant from two one-thousandths, to the greater thereof, that the Alcoholic Beverages Subgroup of the Consumer Price Index for the twelve-month period ending on December 31, 1980, bears to the Alcoholic Beverages Subgroup of the Consumer Price Index for the twelve-month period ending on September 30, 1980, and

(ii) by rounding the product obtained under subparagraph (i) to the nearest one-hundredth of a cent or, if the product is equidistant from two one-hundredths of a cent, to the greater thereof; and

(b) on the first day of September each year, commencing on September 1, 1981, so that the taxes imposed in the twelve-month period commencing on the day the taxes are adjusted are equal to the amount obtained

(i) by multiplying

(A) the taxes set out in subsection (1) by

(B) the ratio, adjusted or altered in such manner as the governor in council may, by regulation, prescribe and rounded to the nearest one-thousandth or, where the ratio is equidistant from two one-thousandths, to the greater thereof, that the Alcoholic Beverages Subgroup of the Consumer Price Index for the twelve-month period ending on the last day of June in that year bears to the Alcoholic Beverage Subgroup of the Consumer Price Index for the twelve-month period ending on June 30, 1980, and

(ii) by rounding the product obtained under subparagraph (i) to the nearest one-hundredth of a cent or, if the product is equidistant from two one-hundredths of a cent, to the greater thereof."

June 9, 1981

He said: Very briefly, Mr. Speaker, I would say that the purpose of this amendment, as it has already been explained, is to make an annual rather than a quarterly adjustment on wines, and also to change the basic period of that adjustment so that it will now end on June 30, 1981. The first quarterly period which had already been established and came into force on April 1 of this year will be maintained until the next basic period comes into effect. As the hon. member for Edmonton West (Mr. Lambert) so aptly put it, that will fulfil the expectations of the industry, while at the same time changing the revenue of the government in that field, since the basic period has been changed.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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LIB

Cyril Lloyd Francis (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Is the House ready for the question?

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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PC

Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert

Progressive Conservative

Hon. Marcel Lambert (Edmonton West):

No, the House should never be ready for the question on this nefarious amendment because it not only defeats the Chair in its reading ability, which is not inconsiderable, it is so complicated that even Mr. Speaker was stumbling through the reading of it.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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?

Some hon. Members:

Shame, shame!

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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PC

Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Lambert:

That is no reflection on the Chair, Mr. Speaker; it is illustrative to those hon. gentlemen who have never even looked at the blessed document that they are into the most bureaucratic jargon that could possibly be devised. Even hon. members who sat in at the finance committee from time to time were never exposed to that type of formula, because that which was in the bill was relatively simple. This was changed in order to arrive at this different revenue base, as I pointed out the other night, which creates an increase of $18 million in tax on wine and spirits over and above the $42 million which is proposed in the numerical increase of what shall be paid by measure on either wine or distilled alcohol.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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?

An hon. Member:

So?

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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PC

Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Lambert:

In response to the hon. member from Quebec City who thinks this is so funny, perhaps if he came around to these committees and displayed some of the intelligence accredited to him, he might find that this is one of the most pernicious bills that has ever been brought forward by any administration. I hope he is able to explain to his constituents, when the price increases go into place, what happened. He will not even be able to do that. He will just simply say that the Minister of Finance (Mr. MacEachen) said he needed more money, so, therefore, you my little citizen-

You, my little friend from Quebec, are going to pay ever more for your beer. I hope he will drink his glass of beer and throw the rest in the face of the hon. member. I am not criticizing anything, but I do take my colleagues opposite to task for finding fault in private and even in public before the

Excise Tax

representatives, saying that the bill was unacceptable and unjustifiable. But when the bill comes back before the House, they cannot even open their mouth. They are behaving like a bunch of sheep. It is very simple, a bunch of sheep knocked down-

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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LIB

Gérard Duquet

Liberal

Mr. Duquet:

They do not stand still to get fleeced!

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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PC

Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Lambert:

The hon. member says they do not stand still to get fleeced. I can assure you that the people they represent are being fleeced. My God, Mr. Speaker, if only they knew!

Because if you increase the tax only on imported alcoholic beverages and wine, the Quebec Liquor Board will naturally be affected by this tax and by the increase, and every year from now on, the cost of living index in this subgroup will be added to the 9 per cent tax, which means that it is not simply an ad valorem conversion that we have here, but that the cost of living index must be added also. This is-

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
?

An hon. Member:

Not true!

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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PC

Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Lambert:

You say; Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, did the hon. member say "hear, hear", or is this a problem for him? For our part, since we have seen that the example of the federal government will soon be followed by a provincial administration, we shall have this problem and add cost of living increases to everything. I wonder whether the results will be satisfactory, but there will be an increase since the price of beer will now be affected by the cost of living index. This increase will affect senior citizens, that is pensioners 65 and over. There will be one for veterans, and the same will apply for taxes on beer. The hon. member should be able to explain that to his constituents.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
LIB

Gérard Duquet

Liberal

Mr. Duquet:

Mr. Speaker, people over 65 are not drinkers.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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PC

Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Lambert:

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is not at his seat.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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LIB

Cyril Lloyd Francis (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

The hon. member for Edmonton West (Mr. Lambert) has the floor.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EXCISE TAX ACT AND EXCISE ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
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June 9, 1981