June 26, 1980

LIB

Lloyd Axworthy (Minister responsible for the Status of Women; Minister of Employment and Immigration)

Liberal

Mr. Axworthy:

Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to answer that question. It is not exactly within the confines of a discussion of the employment tax credit, but because of our mutual interest in our home province I would be prepared to answer that.

I think it is fair to say at this point in time that the negotiations and discussions on the allocation of contracts for the aerospace industry are in process. The presentation by a number of the major contractors is just now going forward to the interdepartmental committee which has been put together to make assessments of different proposals. As the hon. member pointed out, both Bristol Aircraft and Standard Aero, which are well-founded and well-established companies, have made proposals in those areas. They are part of a number of proposals which are being considered by the major contractors and by the government itself.

I welcome the hon. member's support and encouragement. It is my intention to support and encourage the allocation of work where there is the beginning of an aerospace industry, and I think I can tell the hon. member that there is some progress in those negotiations, but I would not want to make any specific announcements because no decisions have yet been taken on much of that work.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
PC

A. Daniel McKenzie

Progressive Conservative

Mr. McKenzie:

Mr. Chairman, the minister does not have to worry about my concerns. This is something I have been working on since 1972. I met with these four members of the aerospace industry last Monday in Winnipeg, and they are very concerned about what work they are going to obtain from the new fighter aircraft industrial spin-offs. If they do not obtain some contracts in the very near future, they will be faced with lay-offs. Can the minister give us some assurance here tonight that the Ministry of Industry, Trade and Commerce and the Ministry of Supply and Services will be meeting with the four aerospace firms in the very near future to discuss

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June 26, 1980

Employment Tax Credit Act

what portion of the new fighter aircraft contract they can obtain? I asked them, "Are you concerned; are you worried?" They said, "Yes, we definitely are". I did not want to be raising the issue in the House if things were going along smoothly and they were getting assurances from Ottawa that they were going to be getting part of the contract. They have received no assurances at all.

I see that the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce is here. Maybe he would want to interject something here tonight about this.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
LIB

Marc Lalonde (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources)

Liberal

Mr. Lalonde:

Order.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
LIB

Jean-Robert Gauthier

Liberal

Mr. Gauthier:

This is not question period.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
PC

A. Daniel McKenzie

Progressive Conservative

Mr. McKenzie:

There is a little conversation going on here between two members, but I want to tell the minister that we are talking about employment here tonight as well as the different regions. If we do not get some assurance about the new fighter aircraft contract in Winnipeg, there will be many lay-offs, and the four firms in Winnipeg are very concerned. Will the minister give some firm commitment as to when he will arrange a meeting between the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce, the Minister of Supply and Services, the Minister of National Defence and the four aerospace firms in Winnipeg so that they can be given some confirmation as to when they will get a firm commitment with regard to building some parts-

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
LIB

Marc Lalonde (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources)

Liberal

Mr. Lalonde:

Order.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
LIB

Denis Éthier (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Deputy Chairman:

Order, please. With the greatest of respect, I must interject at this time and ask the hon. member to confine his questioning to the bill before us, namely, the tax credit bill, and certainly not to the creation of employment in other areas which do not concern this bill.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
PC

A. Daniel McKenzie

Progressive Conservative

Mr. McKenzie:

With all due respect, Mr. Chairman, we are talking about employment and-

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
LIB

Marc Lalonde (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources)

Liberal

Mr. Lalonde:

Order.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
LIB

Denis Éthier (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Deputy Chairman:

Order, please. We are talking about tax credits.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
PC

A. Daniel McKenzie

Progressive Conservative

Mr. McKenzie:

Does the Minister of Employment and Immigration want to respond to what I said?

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
LIB

Dennis Dawson (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Employment and Immigration)

Liberal

Mr. Dawson:

Is this question period?

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
LIB

Marc Lalonde (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources)

Liberal

Mr. Lalonde:

That is out of order.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
LIB

Denis Éthier (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Deputy Chairman:

Order, please. The hon. member for Wetaskiwin.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
PC

Stanley Kenneth Schellenberger

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Schellenberger:

Mr. Chairman, I want to intervene just briefly regarding the employment tax credit bill and the employment program regarding native Canadians which was announced. Just yesterday or Tuesday a report was tabled. That report was rather astonishing, although I suspect most hon. members are aware of the employment conditions, shelter

conditions, and some of the other problems which affect native people.

Under the employment tax credit bill, particularly at a time when we have high unemployment, employers generally seek people who are experienced. There are many people who do not have jobs but do have some work experience. Part of the problem with native Canadians is that most of them have never had the chance to get any experience in order to compete for these jobs. While I understand the technique of the employment tax credit, I do not feel it will assist native Canadians in any way. It might assist only a very few.

Because reserves are becoming crowded, many native Canadians are moving into urban centres. The problem then becomes worse because they are out of their culture. They are often driven to welfare, alcoholism or violence, as a result of living in urban areas. I understand that some $10 million was assessed to the other program which was announced. My question is on whether the minister believes that the employment tax credit will assist in any way native Canadians in solving their problems, particularly those who have left the reserves. Is the $10 million, under the program which has been announced, specifically designed for status Indians or will it relate to the 500,000 non-status Indians and the some 500,000 Metis people who sometimes are considered in the same group with native Canadians? If I can get an answer to those questions, it may relate to some others.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
LIB

Lloyd Axworthy (Minister responsible for the Status of Women; Minister of Employment and Immigration)

Liberal

Mr. Axworthy:

The employment tax credit program would only incidentally bring natives into the work force. It is not a program, as the hon. member properly describes it, which is designed to focus specifically on their concerns. As 1 pointed out in my answer to the hon. member for Calgary West, one of the reasons why we are trying to develop a balanced strategy is to have a range of options whereby we can allocate moneys to where they are most needed. That is why we introduced programs specifically designed to deal with employment difficulties faced by native people. I should say that there is not just a training program.

The community development program is one which will have a very heavy emphasis in those regions of the country where there is a high proportion of native people and, as I believe I indicated-I would like to check Hansard-I believe I said last time, that when we allocate money by constituency, there will be a weighing factor to provide additional funds in areas where there is a higher unemployment rate among native people. So it is that program plus the training program. The training program is available to the native people, both status and non-status, and it is designed to start some innovative programs in the training field.

The hon. member was probably not in the chamber this afternoon when a similar question was asked by another hon. member. We did point out that he should not assume that these are the only programs available for native people. LEAP, under my department, is a close to $70 million pro-

June 26, 1980

gram and almost 50 per cent of that is allocated to work projects for native people.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
PC

Stanley Kenneth Schellenberger

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Schellenberger:

I have one other question regarding the program. In his press release the minister stated that it would enable them to take advantage of urban and remote resource development opportunities. I assume that as the moneys are allocated, many of the ridings do not have resource development opportunities. Would it be possible then, if there is a large resource development such as the tar sands plants, when moneys are allocated in ridings where there are not these kinds of developments, for jobs to be created and for people to have opportunities to move where the jobs are, even though the moneys are allocated specifically in one area?

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
LIB

Lloyd Axworthy (Minister responsible for the Status of Women; Minister of Employment and Immigration)

Liberal

Mr. Axworthy:

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to confuse the hon. member. The allocation by constituency is for the community development program. The training program is one under which we will respond to initiatives and primarily we have asked our regional directors in each of the provinces, particularly the western provinces, to develop for us in consultation with native organizations, how they would like to allocate that money and what is the best use for it. 1 can tell the hon. member that already we have had several meetings with native organizations in Alberta specifically directed at developing training programs relating to the major oil sands projects that are going ahead in that area.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
PC

Stanley Kenneth Schellenberger

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Schellenberger:

My final question relates to the number of jobs. If we refer to the statistic which was given to the hon. member for Calgary West we see that it would cost somewhere around $200 per job. Yet in the release the minister states that he will be assisting some 6,000 native participants. If we do some mathematics we find that at that level only some 1,400 permanent jobs would be created. So I assume that we are looking at temporary jobs for a brief period of time, hoping that they will develop into long-range employment. Given that we still have sometimes between 60 per cent to 80 per cent of the native people unemployed, 1 know that this program will assist them, but surely the minister should address himself to additional programs in this area, particularly in view of the reports that have come out in recent weeks. 1 assume that he will give some direction to the parliamentary committee and to his own committee to make efforts in this area, particularly directed to people living on reserves and those who have left the reserves and are trying to exist in large urban centres.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink
LIB

Lloyd Axworthy (Minister responsible for the Status of Women; Minister of Employment and Immigration)

Liberal

Mr. Axworthy:

I would like to give some clarification. When we talked about 6,000 native participants, we talked about a combination of the training program and the job-creation program under the community development and community services.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   EMPLOYMENT TAX CREDIT ACT
Sub-subtopic:   AMENDMENT RESPECTING EXTENSION OF PROGRAM PERIOD
Permalink

June 26, 1980