November 22, 1978

PC

Lincoln MacCauley Alexander

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Alexander:

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the answer given by the minister, but at the same time there is another question which is equally important. Once we start talking about index-

ation, of course, we are concerned about the classification study, a report which was taken outside of the capital region.

As 1 understand it, the minister has had this study on his desk for a few weeks. Is he in a position to report whether he has taken action, in light of the fact that I have heard there is a move afoot to red circle? More importantly, the minister has given an undertaking to table this very important report, given the fact that we are dealing with millions of dollars in terms of overclassification. Is the minister prepated to table that classification study or report regarding overclassification of public servants? If so, will he do it this afternoon? Has he arrived at any solution to this very serious problem which is costing taxpayers millions of dollars?

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   PUBLIC SERVICE
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY RESPECTING EMPLOYEES FOR NEXT THREE YEARS
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LIB

Robert Knight Andras (President of the Treasury Board)

Liberal

Mr. Andras:

Mr. Speaker, I will be making the results of that classification audit, inside and outside the national capital region, public within the matter of a few days. Also, I will deal with the response of the government to the findings of that audit at the same time.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   PUBLIC SERVICE
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY RESPECTING EMPLOYEES FOR NEXT THREE YEARS
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DETRIMENTAL EFFECT OF GOVERNMENT POLICY ON CANADA'S SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY

PC

Thomas Edward Siddon

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Thomas Siddon (Burnaby-Richmond-Delta):

Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of State for Science and Technology: it relates to the demoralizing effect of current government policy on the Canadian scientific community.

In view of recent statistics released by the Professional Institute of Public Servants, PIPS, to the effect that more than 250 scientists will be out of work by next April, and recognizing recent statements by the president of the National Research Council expressing concern for Canada's economic welfare if our technology continues to be imported from abroad, will the minister advise the House as to what shortterm policies he proposes in order to reverse this frightening trend?

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   DETRIMENTAL EFFECT OF GOVERNMENT POLICY ON CANADA'S SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY
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LIB

J. Judd Buchanan (Minister of Public Works; Minister of State for Science and Technology)

Liberal

Hon. Judd Buchanan (Minister of Public Works and Minister of State for Science and Technology):

Mr. Speaker, 1 find it rather interesting that the party across the way, which I think is advocating cutting 20,000 or 30,000 public servants, is suddenly so concerned about 250 scientists.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   DETRIMENTAL EFFECT OF GOVERNMENT POLICY ON CANADA'S SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY
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PC

Lincoln MacCauley Alexander

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Alexander:

Don't mislead the House.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   DETRIMENTAL EFFECT OF GOVERNMENT POLICY ON CANADA'S SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY
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LIB

J. Judd Buchanan (Minister of Public Works; Minister of State for Science and Technology)

Liberal

Mr. Buchanan:

I am sorry-60,000 over three years. My arithmetic was wrong. There are two points I should like to make in response to the hon. member. We have put in place certain programs to try to increase the use of government laboratories. One of these is the scientific and technological employment program, which is a program under the economic growth component of Canada Works. It encourages the private sector to make use of university laboratories for conducting research. That is useful in the private industry.

In the budget of the Minister of Finance, we put in place a 25 per cent tax credit for small business and doubled the tax

November 22, 1978

credit for larger size firms to try to increase the level of activity in research and development in Canada.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   DETRIMENTAL EFFECT OF GOVERNMENT POLICY ON CANADA'S SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY
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FISHERIES

PC

Lloyd Roseville Crouse

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Lloyd R. Crouse (South Shore):

Mr. Speaker, 1 wish to direct my question to the hon. Minister of Fisheries and the Environment. On January 1, 1979, the Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Organization will replace the International Commission for North Atlantic Fisheries as the regulatory body governing fishing in the Northwest Atlantic.

In light of the fact that this organization will be establishing regulations and setting quotas, I should like to ask the minister what steps he has taken to assure that fisheries ministers in Atlantic Canada, as well as Quebec, and representatives of the fishermen and fishermen's unions will have a chance to make some input into the establishment of quotas for fishing in the Northwest Atlantic?

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   FISHERIES
Sub-subtopic:   FISHING QUOTAS IN NORTHWEST ATLANTIC
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?

Fabien Roy

Hon. Rom6o LeBlanc (Minister of Fisheries and the Environment):

Mr. Speaker, I do not know if the ministers of the various provinces are involved, but certainly their dputies are. I assume they communicate with each other. In fact, the provinces are fully represented on the offshore groundfish advisory committee and on all committees which deal with these matters.

I might underline, for the hon. member, that the stocks we are talking about today are outside the 200-mile zone, and that in fact it is very much in Canada's interest, and I think a tribute to our negotiators, that we have been able to have a say in respect of what takes place outside the 200 miles because that does have a considerable impact on the economies of these provinces, particularly Newfoundland.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   FISHERIES
Sub-subtopic:   FISHING QUOTAS IN NORTHWEST ATLANTIC
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PC

Lloyd Roseville Crouse

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Crouse:

Mr. Speaker, in light of the minister's answer, it is my understanding that the NAFO convention has been signed by Canada, the U.S.S.R., Romania, East and West Germany, France, Italy, Portugal, Norway, Denmark and Great Britain. I would, therefore, ask the minister whether the United States, Spain, Poland, Cuba, Japan and Bulgaria have signed the NAFQ convention and, if not, what effect will this non-compliance with regulations laid down by NAFO have on foreign fishing, not only in the areas the minister mentioned off the Flemish Cap, outside the 200-mile limit, but also in respect of established quotas within our 200-mile zone?

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   FISHERIES
Sub-subtopic:   FISHING QUOTAS IN NORTHWEST ATLANTIC
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LIB

Roméo LeBlanc (Minister of the Environment)

Liberal

Mr. LeBlanc (Westmorland-Kent):

Mr. Speaker, I would have to check on this, but I know that the convention has been open for signature and that some countries which did not sign indicated that really was because of problems of procedure. For example, in the case of the United States there is a procedure through Congress which has to be followed. I understand from discussions that they agree with the sub-

Point of Order-Mr. Clark

stance of the new convention or treaty. I know in specific cases that subdelegates told us verbally at the signing ceremony that once they had overcome procedural problems involved, they would sign, and that meanwhile they would live up to the expectations of other countries.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   FISHERIES
Sub-subtopic:   FISHING QUOTAS IN NORTHWEST ATLANTIC
Permalink

POINT OF ORDER

PC

Charles Joseph Clark (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Joe Clark (Leader of the Opposition):

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order relating to a comment made in the House yesterday by the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources (Mr. Gillespie). It may well be, sir, that this could have been raised as a question of privilege, but it came to my attention only during the question period and I did not have the opportunity to give you notice. In any event, 1 would prefer to treat it as a simple question of disorder.

The matter arises from page 1319 of Hansard of yesterday in relation to an alleged question of privilege which Your Honour dismissed by indicating it was simply in the nature of debate. I do not want at this point, of course, to deal with the subject matter of that debate, which has to do with a difference of view between those of us in this party and those in the government as to the reality of obligations incurred by the people of Canada in the acquisition of Pacific Petroleums.

What concerns me is that the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources, in reference to my party, and in reference particularly to me, made the following statement:

-that the opposition are trying to distort and trying to mislead.

Those were his words precisely.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   POINT OF ORDER
Sub-subtopic:   MR. CLARK-STATEMENT MADE BY MINISTER OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES
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?

An hon. Member:

Right on!

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   POINT OF ORDER
Sub-subtopic:   MR. CLARK-STATEMENT MADE BY MINISTER OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES
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PC

Charles Joseph Clark (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Clark:

I am sure that in spite of the rather Pavlovian reaction of some members on the other side the minister will recognize, as we all do, that from time to time in this House we state things a little more strongly than we intend. He will know, I am sure, that the imputation he has made in this statement is contrary to Beauchesne's fourth edition, Rule 154(3), and so I will not go to the extent of quoting it. I am sure he would want to take the opportunity now, as a gentleman, in the House to indicate simply that he spoke more enthusiastically than he intended, and withdraw the suggestion that we in this party are trying to distort and to mislead.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   POINT OF ORDER
Sub-subtopic:   MR. CLARK-STATEMENT MADE BY MINISTER OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES
Permalink
?

Some hon. Members:

Hear, hear!

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   POINT OF ORDER
Sub-subtopic:   MR. CLARK-STATEMENT MADE BY MINISTER OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES
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LIB

Alastair William Gillespie (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources)

Liberal

Hon. Alastair Gillespie (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources):

Mr. Speaker, I would like to reply to those words of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Clark). I think any reasonable person who had followed the debate, as I have tried to follow it, would come to the same conclusion that I came to. I think the kind of statement put before the House yesterday by the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi (Mr. Grafftey) was

80067-16Y2

November 22, 1978

Point of Order-Mr. Clark

clearly aimed at using the television media to create the impression that the Government of Canada had borrowed funds for the purchase of Pacific Pete, funds which the Government of Canada might have used, in the words of the Leader of the Opposition, to assist the people. I think his words which appear at page 1288 of Hansard were:

Surely there are a number of Canadians looking for homes who could put that money to better use.

The Leader of the Opposition picked up exactly the same theme used the day before. It seems to me there was a clear implication in those words of the Leader of the Opposition that the Government of Canada might have used those funds for this purpose, implying that the Government of Canada had borrowed those funds to acquire Pacific Petroleums.

The Leader of the Opposition knows that Petro-Canada raised the funds, and I challenge him to say otherwise. He knows, from repeated evidence that has been put before this House, that Petro-Canada, or a subsidiary of Petro-Canada, raised these funds from the banking system, using a commercial instrument to finance a commercial transaction involving a Crown corporation of the government. This was organized by that Crown corporation, Petro-Canada.

As I have read the record it seems to me I can come to no other conclusion than that the opposition was trying to mislead. Whether it has been successful-

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   POINT OF ORDER
Sub-subtopic:   MR. CLARK-STATEMENT MADE BY MINISTER OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES
Permalink
?

An hon. Member:

Withdraw.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   POINT OF ORDER
Sub-subtopic:   MR. CLARK-STATEMENT MADE BY MINISTER OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES
Permalink
LIB

Alastair William Gillespie (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources)

Liberal

Mr. Gillespie:

Whether or not the opposition has been successful, I am not sure. However, if in your judgment, Mr. Speaker, the words I used are unparliamentary, of course I would be the first to wish to put the record straight. I really want to make the observation that quite clearly there seemed to be an intent to create an impression other than the fact.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   POINT OF ORDER
Sub-subtopic:   MR. CLARK-STATEMENT MADE BY MINISTER OF ENERGY, MINES AND RESOURCES
Permalink

November 22, 1978