May 16, 1978

PC

Roch La Salle

Progressive Conservative

Mr. La Salle:

Mr. Speaker, allow me to remind the Minister of Finance and the Prime Minister that the Quebec Minister of Finance got the support of all opposition parties, as well as that of Mr. Ryan, and the Prime Minister is aware of that.

Here is my question. Since the Minister of Finance intended it as an incentive to industry and since he recognized yesterday that his proposal no longer meets completely his basic objective, I conclude that the Minister of Finance deliberately lied to the Canadian people and, under the circumstances, does the minister-

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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LIB

James Alexander Jerome (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Order. If the hon. member has a question, I would ask him to put it immediately.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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PC

Roch La Salle

Progressive Conservative

Mr. La Salle:

Mr. Speaker, here is my question. The Minister of Finance intended this as a direct incentive to industry. Yesterday, he recognized that his formula was not a direct incentive. So, I conclude that he deliberately lied to the Canadian people, and I ask him to apologize to them.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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LIB

Joseph Jacques Jean Chrétien (Minister of Finance)

Liberal

Mr. Chretien:

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. I ask the hon. member to withdraw his words because they are unparliamentary. He used the terms "deliberately lied". Such words are unparliamentary and he should withdraw them before I can answer his question.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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LIB

James Alexander Jerome (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Without being able to verify the exact language of the hon. member, my recollection is that what he had accused-

May 16, 1978

Oral Questions

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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PC

Roch La Salle

Progressive Conservative

Mr. La Salle:

That is what I said, Mr. Speaker.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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LIB

James Alexander Jerome (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Order, please. What he did was accuse the hon. minister of directly lying to the population. Whether or not that accusation is made in respect of the House or whether or not it is made in respect of any action on the part of the minister, it seems to me the accusation by one member of another member of a direct lie is unparliamentary and must be withdrawn.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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?

Some hon. Members:

Three o'clock.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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PC

Roch La Salle

Progressive Conservative

Mr. La Salle:

Mr. Speaker, if I understood well, you want me to withdraw. In view of the commitments made by the minister regarding the proposals contained in his budget, and after what he did, I repeat that he is a liar.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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LIB

James Alexander Jerome (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Order, please. Without having an opportunity to examine the record, the question period will not proceed unless and until the hon. member withdraws the remark he has made in respect of an accusation of lying by the minister, if that is in fact what has taken place. If the hon. member did not say what I have accused him of saying, I am prepared to listen to him. However, if he has accused the minister of lying directly, I would expect him to withdraw that. Otherwise, the question period cannot proceed.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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PC

Walter David Baker (Official Opposition House Leader; Progressive Conservative Party House Leader)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Walter Baker (Grenville-Carleton):

Mr. Speaker, I rise on what I think amounts to a point of order at this point. It may be something else.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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?

Some hon. Members:

Oh, oh!

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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PC

Walter David Baker (Official Opposition House Leader; Progressive Conservative Party House Leader)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Baker (Grenville-Carleton):

In Your Honour's initial reaction to what was raised in the House by the Minister of Finance-and I am sure you did it deliberately-you mentioned that perhaps there might be a distinction. Quite frankly, I would like a few moments to consider what Your Honour has said in respect of that distinction. It is now five minutes to three o'clock: I wonder if the matter can wait until three o'clock.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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?

Some hon. Members:

Oh, oh!

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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LIB

James Alexander Jerome (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Order, please. I have not heard from the hon. member for Joliette that he did not accuse the minister of lying directly. If he has accused the minister of lying, I would expect him to withdraw it. If he has not, I would expect him to make representations to that effect now. However, if that has been his accusation, the question period will not proceed unless and until that accusation is withdrawn.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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?

Some hon. Members:

Hear, hear!

[ Translation]

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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PC

Roch La Salle

Progressive Conservative

Mr. La Salle:

Mr. Speaker, I listened attentively to your comments, and with all due respect, I also listened to the statement made by the Minister of Finance, his objectives, and his reaction to the allegations he made against us. We have always concurred in the unanimous stance taken by the National Assembly in this matter. The Minister of Finance always persisted in saying that we upheld a separatist measure or a measure aimed at undermining federalism, and such a statement is false. That is why I repeat that the Minister of Finance has been deliberately lying in this regard for the past three weeks, and I do not retract what I have said.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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LIB

James Alexander Jerome (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Order, please. I have made a decision in respect of the accusation of the hon. member for Joliette. He has not in any way withdrawn or in any way retreated from the accusation he has made against another member of the House of directly lying. The proceedings of the House will not go forward unless and until the hon. member either withdraws or retires.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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?

Some hon. Members:

Out!

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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NDP

Stanley Howard Knowles (N.D.P. House Leader)

New Democratic Party

Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to get into the dispute as to what the hon. member said or what he should do. But it seems to me it is hardly fair to the rest of the House to cut off the question period for that reason. It seems to me, as is the case with most points of order or disputes, that this one should be raised at three o'clock.

Topic:   ORAL QUESTION PERIOD
Subtopic:   ALLEGED INJUSTICE TO QUEBECKERS RESPECTING SALES TAX
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May 16, 1978