Mr. Rodriguez:

He is on the general interest side.

Mr. Grafftey:

Hon. members insist on taking sides. As long as they prattle the conventional wisdom, they will get nowhere.

Mr. Fraser:

The government wants people to borrow money but not pay it back.

What do the Tories say?

80001-4 ty2

November 1, 1976

Protection of Borrowers and Depositors

Mr. Grafftey:

Liberals and socialists say that there is automatically confrontation between the consumer and the corporate interest.

Mr. Rodriguez:

You are on the corporate side.

Mr. Grafftey:

Previous ministers in charge of the department brought the department into disrepute because of that attitude. We on my side of the House say you will get nowhere with legislation like this unless you delineate, initially, the common interest of consumer and corporate entities.

Mr. Gilbert:

Let's hear Sine.

Mr. Grafftey:

Progressive Convervatives do not accept the conventional wisdom which has been aided and abetted by government stupidity. It is not easy to put conventional wisdom aside. You must consult both sides.

Mr. Rodriguez:

And you are talking on behalf of one side.

Mr. Grafftey:

I thought we set up the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs in the first place in order to bring about some degree of understanding, communication and co-operation between the consumer and corporate sectors and government. Only after such understanding, communication and co-operation had been achieved was there to be action. If the department failed to act in the areas of concern to consumers and corporations-and I hope the minister will rectify this-the reason is that the present government accepted the outdated conventional wisdom which has been prattled for years by socialists, to the effect that there is an automatic, built-in conflict between consumers and corporate entities.

No.

Mr. Grafftey:

We do not believe in that.

Mr. Gilbert:

I think he is filibustering this bill.

Mr. Grafftey:

We think that we can only have progressive consumer protection, or legislation protecting Canadian borrowers-and I know those to my left will not like this-if we truly conserve the constructive viability of our lending institutions.

Explain.

Mr. Grafftey:

If I have to explain that to you, you are lost before you begin. Since the creation of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, this government has done an appalling job of demonstrating a mutual interest in producers, manufacturers and consumers. We on this side believe that while government must often be willing to take tough and unpopular decisions, we are going to get nowhere without a high degree of co-operation and communication between government, producers and consumers. Frankly, if this sounds like a motherhood truism, it is. I believe it has to be repeated and repeated and repeated-

And repeated.

Mr. Grafftey:

-and repeated, because of the confrontation attitude of this government up to now with this department. The minister would privately admit to me that the record of the department has been pretty sad to date. The government's approach to this bill, in many ways laudable in intention, is horrendous in its execution. Why? Because of delay. It is the kind of thing that should have been brought in by any government worthy of calling itself a government, five years ago.

Why didn't your government bring it in?