Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Stanbury) took the words right out of my mouth with regard to an error when drafting the amendment. I wonder if I could have the privilege of drawing to the attention of the hon. member for Crowfoot (Mr. Horner) that his French version is correct. His French is better than his English. The French version of the amendment takes out the word "their" and puts in "the Canadian standard of living". All he needs is the authority of the House to treat the English version as though it says what is said in French.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laniel):

Is the hon. member suggesting that we proceed in French for the remainder of the debate? From what has been said, I think the House should allow the Chair to make the correction to make the amendment read the same as it reads in French.

Mr. Stanbury:

Mr. Speaker, I think we could agree to that provided the hon. member for Crowfoot (Mr. Horner) does not make the same speech now in French.

Mr. Horner (Crowfoot):

I would like to, but I don't think I could.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laniel):

Is the House ready for the question?

Question.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laniel):

All those in favour will please say, yea.

Yea.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laniel):

All those against will please say, nay.

Nay.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laniel):

In my opinion, the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laniel):

Pursuant to section 11 of Standing Order 25, the recorded division on the proposed amendment stands deferred.

Order. The Chair is at this point questioning the validity of the amendment in the name of the hon. member for Crowfoot (Mr. Horner). It would appear, at first glance, anyway, that motion No. 4 is consequential upons motions 1 and 2 which have been declared unacceptable, and it may be that the hon. member would not wish to proceed with motion No. 4 in those circumstances. There is, however, no difficulty about dealing with the motion from a strictly procedural point of view, because motion No. 4, as it reads, is acceptable, even though it might be consequential on the first two motions.

Mr. Horner (Crowfoot):

Your Honour will correct me if I am wrong; I understood you to say that the motion, itself, is acceptable, but you wonder whether it is not consequential on motions Nos. 1 and 2. I believe it stands on its own. It deals with the form of certification a religious order or sect would need from the minister in order to qualify for the exemption set out in the bill, and I should like to speak to that point.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Laniel):

The Chair has said that procedurally the motion is acceptable, and in the light of what the hon. member has said, I think the best way to proceed would be to put the motion before the House at this time.

Mr. J. H. Horner (Crowfoot) moved:

That Bill C-190, an Act to amend the Canada Pension Plan, be amended.

That clause one be amended by deleting lines 20 to 22 inclusive at page three.

He said: Mr. Speaker, this amendment attempts to clear up the basis upon which the minister will make his decision. It proposes to delete the words "religious sect or division thereof has applied to him in prescribed form for certification." In other words, which groups can apply for certification from the minister for exemptions from the Canada Pension Plan? I think I should read from the committee proceedings of October 18, issue No. 17 of the Minutes of Proceedings of the Standing Committee on Health, Welfare and Social Affairs. A Mr. Snyder was appearing before the committee on behalf of members of the Old Order of Mennonites. He is the executive director of the Central Mennonite Committee of Ontario. I draw the attention of the House to the following exchange of questions and answers:

Mr. Horner (Crowfoot):

Does the Old Order of Mennonites live as individuals? Do they farm as individuals, or do they farm in communes like the Hutterites?

No. They live as individuals and farm as individuals. They own no land corporately.

Mr. Horner (Crowfoot):

If I understand you correctly, the Bishop will determine whether or not they should be allowed out of the Canada Pension Plan.

Mr. Martin, who is a member of the Old Order of Menno-nites, and who was appearing as a witness along with Mr. Snyder, stated:

If this bill passes, the person's standing will determine it.

Mr. Horner (Crowfoot):

Pardon?

Mr. Martin:

The person's decision on these matters will determine it. The Bishop will only be the tool who will be responsible to say yes or no. It is not a dictatorship. The Bishop will never say . ..