May 16, 1972

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE

STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH

IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

Yesterday the right hon. member for Prince Albert proposed to move a motion under Standing Order 43 in the following words:

That the subject matter of public statements made by the hon. member, and in particular those which are of a disparaging nature to the integrity and independence of the bench, be immediately referred to the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs.

Before putting the question the Chair expressed reservations about the procedural acceptability of the motion in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order 51. Although there appeared to be unanimous consent among hon. members to proceed with the debate, the Chair undertook to look into the procedural aspects of the proposed motion.

It should be pointed out that the unanimous consent of the House contemplated by Standing Order 43 has reference only to the setting aside of the notice requirements provided in Standing Order 42. That is the sole purpose of the Standing Order. It does not set aside the ordinary rules applicable to the form and content of motions.

Thus, when a motion is proposed under the terms of Standing Order 43 the Chair has an obligation to ensure that the ordinary usages of the House are observed. Even after the most serious and exhaustive consideration of the matter, the Chair has the same reservations as to the procedural aspects of a motion of this kind.

In the circumstances I would hope that it might be found possible either to redraft the motion and propose it in other terms or, if it is the unanimous desire of the House, to have a debate on this matter in some other form, perhaps under the provisions of another Standing Order or procedure. As hon. members know, there have been discussions in this regard. Hopefully, these consultations will result in due course in some understanding between all parties and individuals concerned. However, this is not for the Chair to decide, and for the moment I would have to leave this in the hands of hon. members themselves.

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
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NDP

Stanley Howard Knowles (N.D.P. House Leader; Whip of the N.D.P.)

New Democratic Party

Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. In view of the reference Your Honour just made to discussions among the House leaders with regard to this matter, may I ask the government House leader whether the agreement we reached yesterday for a debate at nine o'clock tonight, on a different

type of motion but with respect to this matter, will be put into effect?

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
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LIB

Allan Joseph MacEachen (President of the Privy Council; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. MacEachen:

Mr. Speaker, it is not entirely my responsibility to determine whether this can be or will be done. First of all, I would prefer to hear the views of the mover and the seconder of the motion in question. If there is a desire along those lines, I would certainly be happy to co-operate with the over-all wish to have a debate, but it is not my purpose to bring about a debate that may not be desired at this point.

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
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NDP

David Lewis

New Democratic Party

Mr. David Lewis (York South):

Mr. Speaker, in view of what has just happened, and on the basis of the notice which I gave you, I am forced to rise on a question of privilege, which I now do, because what occurred yesterday has resulted in a misrepresentation of what I have said-

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
Permalink
?

Some hon. Members:

Oh, oh!

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
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NDP

David Lewis

New Democratic Party

Mr. Lewis:

-and has got national attention in a thoroughly unfair way. Mr. Speaker, the first thing I want to say, in view of the attack made on me by the right hon. gentleman, is that I do not retract anything I said last Friday, nor do I make any apologies for having said it.

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
Permalink
?

Some hon. Members:

Oh, oh!

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
Permalink
?

Some hon. Members:

Hear, hear!

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
Permalink
NDP

David Lewis

New Democratic Party

Mr. Lewis:

The second thing I want to say is that the reports of what I said which appeared in the Globe and Mail and the Toronto Star were accurate reports. I do not claim that those reports in any way misquoted or misrepresented me, but I cannot say the same thing for what the right hon. gentleman from Prince Albert put before the House and before the people of Canada-

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
Permalink
?

Some hon. Members:

Hear, hear!

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
Permalink
?

Some hon. Members:

Oh, oh!

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
Permalink
NDP

David Lewis

New Democratic Party

Mr. Lewis:

-because what he said was a complete misrepresentation of what I said and, indeed, of what was reported in the papers to which I referred.

As recorded at page 2243 of yesterday's Hansard the right hon. gentleman said in part:

-I have never found it necessary to attribute the results to a politically partisan court. I admit that judges are not above criticism and they must be subjected to the constant searchlight of public opinion. But to condemn the judiciary blanket-wise as men virtually without integrity cannot be justified.

Later he said:

That means that the judiciary, unable to protect itself, is not independent.

2290

May 16, 1972

Administration of Justice

The right hon. gentleman made these statements and I cannot permit these statements and misrepresentation to stand. I wish there had been a debate but since there is not one and I am not prepared to wait for tomorrow or the day after-this has gone across the country. I am entitled, I submit to you, Sir, to put the record straight now.

The right hon. gentleman may be prepared to let the matter stand now. He has had the publicity which of course he did his best to shun. No doubt his natural reticence was overcome by public demand.

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
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PC

John George Diefenbaker

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

Mr. Speaker-

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
Permalink
NDP

David Lewis

New Democratic Party

Mr. Lewis:

But I do not appreciate what he has done.

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
Permalink
PC

John George Diefenbaker

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

Mr. Speaker-

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
Permalink
IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

Order, please. The right hon. gentleman rises on a point of order.

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
Permalink
PC

John George Diefenbaker

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

Mr. Speaker, I do not mind the hon. gentleman exculpating himself by misrepresentation or otherwise but to go into detail he did indicate he is prepared for a debate that is not going to take place.

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
Permalink
NDP

Frank Howard

New Democratic Party

Mr. Howard (Skeena):

All because you do not want it.

Topic:   ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE
Subtopic:   STATEMENTS BY MEMBER FOR YORK SOUTH
Sub-subtopic:   ALLEGEDLY REFLECTING ON JUDGES-REQUEST FOR UNANIMOUS CONSENT TO MOVE MOTION UNDER S.O. 43
Permalink

May 16, 1972