April 27, 1971

PRESENCE IN SPEAKER'S GALLERY OF REPRESENTATIVES OF PEOPLE'S CONSULTATIVE CONGRESS OF INDONESIA

IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

This House has the honour and pleasure of welcoming today a most distinguished parliamentary figure and a national hero in his own country, General Abdul Haris Nasution, Chairman of the People's Consultative Congress of Indonesia.

Topic:   PRESENCE IN SPEAKER'S GALLERY OF REPRESENTATIVES OF PEOPLE'S CONSULTATIVE CONGRESS OF INDONESIA
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?

Some hon. Members:

Hear, hear!

Topic:   PRESENCE IN SPEAKER'S GALLERY OF REPRESENTATIVES OF PEOPLE'S CONSULTATIVE CONGRESS OF INDONESIA
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IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

General Nasution is concluding a nine-day visit to Canada, accompanied by his beautiful and charming wife, Madame Sunarti Nasution, as well as by Mr. Mustamin Matutu, a Member of the Congress, and Lieutenant Colonel Supolo, Secretary to the Congress. They are in the Speaker's Gallery today with His Excellency the Ambassador of Indonesia and Madame Bandoro.

Topic:   PRESENCE IN SPEAKER'S GALLERY OF REPRESENTATIVES OF PEOPLE'S CONSULTATIVE CONGRESS OF INDONESIA
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?

Some hon. Members:

Hear, hear!

Topic:   PRESENCE IN SPEAKER'S GALLERY OF REPRESENTATIVES OF PEOPLE'S CONSULTATIVE CONGRESS OF INDONESIA
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IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

These honoured guests have visited a number of Canadian cities before coming to the capital city. It is the hope of this House that their tour has been enjoyable, that their many contacts with Canadians from all walks of life have proven useful, and that they take away with them many pleasant memories of their visit. We want to assure them of our own personal and enduring friendship.

Topic:   PRESENCE IN SPEAKER'S GALLERY OF REPRESENTATIVES OF PEOPLE'S CONSULTATIVE CONGRESS OF INDONESIA
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?

Some hon. Members:

Hear, hear!

Topic:   PRESENCE IN SPEAKER'S GALLERY OF REPRESENTATIVES OF PEOPLE'S CONSULTATIVE CONGRESS OF INDONESIA
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PRIVILEGE

MR. FORTIN-CONVERSION OF COQUALEETZA HOSPITAL INTO COMMUNITY CENTRE

SC

André-Gilles Fortin

Social Credit

Mr. Andre Fortin (Loibiniere):

Mr. Speaker, on March 24 last, I asked the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development (Mr. Chretien) a number of questions concerning the conversion of the Coqualeetza Hospital into a community centre and the related family and social problems. The minister's answers to these questions are recorded on page 4566 of Hansard.

On March 24, the minister replied that no decision had been made as to the conversion of this property, further indicating that three proposals had been made by the Indians, that his department was studying each of

these proposals and that the government would make a decision later. May I quote the minister's words:

-We are not, however, in a position to give an answer at this time.

Now, the same day, Mr. Wilbur T. Campbell, president of the North American Indian Brotherhood of British Columbia and of the Coqualeetza Community Centre received a letter from Mr. Bergevin, Assistant Deputy Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development, stating quite clearly that a decision had already been taken and would stand.

Mr. Speaker, I contend that the House has been misinformed, as I have been myself, and that this prevents us from making the representations that should be made at this level.

I, therefore, move, seconded by the hon. member for Abitibi (Mr. Laprise):

That any decision be withheld until the conclusion of a thorough investigation regarding the conversion of the Coqualeetza Hospital into a community centre.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. FORTIN-CONVERSION OF COQUALEETZA HOSPITAL INTO COMMUNITY CENTRE
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IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

The hon. member can only move this motion to the extent that the Chair recognizes that this is a question of privilege. I suggest to the hon. member that this is not a matter of privilege, at least, not a prima facie case. It seems to me that the hon. member could obtain the information that he is seeking in some way other than through a question of privilege.

In any case, I suggest to him that the motion that he is moving is a substantive one, and not one of privilege, and that, in these circumstances, it cannot be put before the House.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. FORTIN-CONVERSION OF COQUALEETZA HOSPITAL INTO COMMUNITY CENTRE
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ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

MISCELLANEOUS PRIVATE BILLS AND STANDING ORDERS


First report of Standing Committee on Miscellaneous Private Bills and Standing Orders-Mr. Forget (Saint-Michel). [Editor's Note: For text of above report, see today's Votes and Proceedings.]


TABLING OF AGREEMENT WITH FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY ON SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNOLOGICAL CO-OPERATION-STATEMENT BY MINISTER

LIB

Jean-Luc Pepin (Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce)

Liberal

Hon. Jean-Luc Pepin (Minisler of Industry, Trade and Commerce):

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 41 (2), I should like to table, in the two official lan-

April 27, 1971

Trade Agreement with Germany guages, copies of an agreement between the government of Canada and the government of the Federal Republic of Germany on scientific and technological co-operation.

Mr. Speaker, I had the privilege last week of leading a trade and industry mission to the Federal Republic of Germany. The mission was made up of 28 leading businessmen representing a wide range of interests, and a group of senior federal and provincial officials. Our purposes were 1) to sign this agreement, developed earlier by a science-technology mission of scientists and officials from business and government, 2) to develop closer economic relations of every type between Canada and the Federal Republic and 3) to discuss with the German government bilateral, European and multilateral trade problems.

This new scientific and technological agreement is similar to those with Belgium and the USSR which we have concluded this year. Its aims are to encourage the exchange of information and research; to facilitate the movement of scientists and technologists; and, through the exchange of knowledge and experience, to contribute to Canada's trade and industrial development and to the growth of our exports of advanced industrial products and services.

I might add that the science and technology mission had identified a number of areas of collaboration with Germany which are particularly promising for Canada- computer software, oceanography, geophysics, metallurgy, construction techniques, to name only a few.

The choice of business representatives on the mission I led was related to these promising areas for trade and development as well as other sectors of mutual interest. The business members of my mission travelled widely throughout Germany, for private meetings with manufacturers, bankers and prospective investors. They developed new contacts which are expected to lead to increased trade, to the introduction of new technology into Canada, to licensing agreements, joint ventures, new investment and to other forms of co-operation between the business communities of the two countries. The businessmen were well pleased with the opportunities the mission was able to develop. A detailed report on these opportunities is being prepared and will be released when it is completed.

While the meetings between business men were proceeding, I held discussions with the German Ministers and/or State Secretaries of Economics, Science, Foreign Affairs and Defence and their officials; and with the Governor of the German Central Bank.

Accompanied by members of'the mission, I also met with representatives of the Federation of German Industries, the German Chamber of Commerce and with a wide range of leading figures in the German business community. I encouraged them to step up their interest in the development of industry in Canada and in purchasing their basic food and material requirements from Canada, as well as in buying more of the products of our secondary industry. I also drew their attention to Canada

as a possible source of more of their energy needs in the future. World trading problems and prospects were quite extensively discussed, as well as Canadian policies on these important matters.

With ministers and officials I emphasized the problems which enlargement of the Common Market would bring to Canadian exporters to Britain.

I also spoke of the need to move forward at an early date toward a freer world trading environment. I sought to establish that the Federal Republic, as well as other members of the community, should in their own interests wish to undertake broad trade negotiations with outside countries as soon as practicable and generally avoid the disruption of established and valuable trade relations with Canada and other non-member countries.

I believe, Mr. Speaker, that these discussions were very useful. German ministers now have a better understanding and knowledge of the particular position of Canada in relation to the enlargement of the European Economic Community. I believe that they now better realize the extent of the mutuality of interest between Canada, the existing community and the prospective new members. German ministers emphasized repeatedly the commitment of their country to a multilateral free trading system.

I hope that this greater understanding will help to lead to better solutions of world trading problems, taking account of the interests of Canada and other trading partners of the Common Market. It would indeed be welcome if the EEC countries and the applicant members were prepared, in the coming months, to indicate their willingness to enter into another meaningful round of negotiations for the freeing of world trade.

Topic:   TABLING OF AGREEMENT WITH FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY ON SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNOLOGICAL CO-OPERATION-STATEMENT BY MINISTER
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PC

Harold Warren Danforth

Progressive Conservative

Mr. H. W. Danforih (Keni-Essex):

Mr. Speaker, I should like to begin by thanking the minister for his usual courtesy in providing the opposition with a copy of his speech whenever he has the intention to make one on motions. This has proven to be most helpful.

We are indeed delighted that an agreement of this kind has been signed with the Federal Republic of Germany, a nation which has aroused the envy of the world, especially in the last decade, because of its economic and industrial aggressiveness. Certainly that country has much that we could copy and from which we could learn. One has only to visit Germany to be impressed at once by the psychology of its people who seem determined to make industrial progress. No day seems to be too long. There is one area in particular that we could emulate. Here is a country which over the past ten years has actually found it progressively more difficult to obtain enough employees to service its various economic projects and industrial complexes, while in Canada in the last ten years we seem to have been constantly fighting a losing battle to provide equal job opportunities and economic welfare.

The minister's statement speaks of the exchanges which will be possible between the business and scientific interests of the two nations. Up to now we only have the

April 27, 1971

signing of an agreement. Its success will depend on industry, the ambition of Canadian businessmen and technocrats, and the encouragement of the government in taking full advantage of the open door and the opportunities offered to us at this time. I hope the government will continue to take the lead in this regard and provide constant encouragement for these interests to take full advantage of the opportunity afforded to them.

I wish to deal with one other part of the statement. The statement deals with vague generalities. The minister spoke of his dealings and talks with ministers of the Federal Republic of Germany concerning the European Common Market and Canadian policies. I am sure they were in doubt about such policies because we in the Parliament of Canada are also in doubt.

We hope that at an early opportunity the minister will avail himself of the opportunity on motions to deal in some detail not only with the government's policies and programs with regard to the European Common Market but also the equally important subject of the government's position and progress toward freer international trade. This must be a complex problem as far as other nations are concerned in their dealings with Canada. In some areas we seem perfectly willing to progress rapidly toward a freer exchange of goods, but in other areas we are loath to reduce any tariff or non-tariff barriers in order to move toward a free exchange of goods between countries. The minister and the government should provide an opportunity for a full debate so that the opposition and the people of Canada will know to what degree the government's policy is directed toward free trade, whether it is a policy of selective free trade, progressive free trade or complete free trade. We in this country as well as the countries of the European Economic Community would like to know what the government's policy is in this regard.

The opposition welcomes the agreement that has been signed. This is real progress. We can learn much from the Federal Republic of Germany. We can gain much from its economic, industrial and technical know-how. I hope that country will find it equally lucrative to visit Canada.

Topic:   TABLING OF AGREEMENT WITH FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY ON SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNOLOGICAL CO-OPERATION-STATEMENT BY MINISTER
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NDP

John Stratford Burton

New Democratic Party

Mr. John Burton (Regina East):

Mr. Speaker, I am sure that all hon. members always welcome reports of initiatives taken by the minister and his department in carrying on exchanges and discussions with responsible officials of other countries in an attempt to improve our economic relationships with those countries. These are certainly to be welcomed and encouraged. However, it should be pointed out that such initiatives will only achieve adequate results if they are cast within a proper and adequately thought-out policy framework, if, indeed, the objectives and the thrust of such initiatives are adequately defined. Members of this party have on many occasions pointed out to the government that we feel it has not adequately defined its policy objectives and the general thrust of its policy in encouraging trading relations with other countries.

Trade Agreement with Germany

One point that should also be noted is that, while I have no doubt that the 28 leading businessmen who accompanied the minister to Germany were all very well qualified in their own fields, I think it is to be regretted that representatives of the labour movement and of the agricultural industry were not included in the delegation. Representatives of these two groups could have added significantly to the usefulness of the mission.

I believe we will all agree that the signing of an agreement such as that described by the minister is useful and to be encouraged. However, by itself the agreement does not accomplish the objectives we would hope to achieve. Again, it is a matter of casting such agreements within a properly defined policy framework.

In addition, we should take note of the minister's statement that during the discussions with the German government and German businessmen he encouraged them to step up their interest in the development of industry in Canada and in the purchase of basic food and material requirements from Canada. Two points arise in this regard. First, what are the implications of the phrase "development of industry in Canada"? Does it simply mean we shall be obtaining more capital from Germany in future rather than from another country, or will such a move be properly related to whatever policy announcement the government may make with respect to foreign ownership of Canadian industries? Again, with respect to material requirements I notice the minister did not use the term "raw material requirements" though it seemed to me that the tone of his statement pointed in that direction. Everyone will agree that there is a need to encourage the export of agricultural and food products to Germany as well as to other countries in western Europe.

The minister also told us that discussions were held concerning world trading problems and prospects. It is, of course, essential and important to discuss this matter with other countries at every opportunity. The tone of the minister's statement certainly indicated the concern he now feels about the problems which are arising in consequence of the new developments in the European Economic Community. I believe we will agree with the minister that we should move toward a freer world trading environment, but I am sure the minister would also agree that there are many roadblocks in the way of achieving such an environment. Indeed, it is quite possible that such an environment may not be achieved by Canada and by other countries interested in such an objective. It is therefore essential that the government should have open to it alternative policy approaches designed to deal with possible problems that will arise in the future.

A good deal of publicity has been given in recent weeks to the development of world trading blocs and the problems which this is likely to create for countries such as Canada. The minister should be encouraged and, indeed, urged to deal with this situation and develop the approach of the department and of the government in this respect.

I also noted the minister's comment that it would indeed be welcome if the EEC countries and applicants

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April 27, 1971

Trade Agreement with Germany

were prepared to indicate their willingness to enter into further discussions. The words "it would indeed be welcome" suggest to me that the hon. gentleman has doubts whether in fact that will turn out to be the case. This underlines the concern many of us feel about Canada's future trading relations.

Overriding all these things is the need for the government to develop an adequate economic strategy to deal with our economic problems. This strategy must take account of the growth of multinational corporations, the influence of technology, the need for the rationalization of much of our industry and the attendant specialization that goes with it. Trading problems are, of course, closely related to all this. Thus I think it is essential to Canada's future and for the well being of our people that the government develop its policy more adequately than it has up to the present time.

Topic:   TABLING OF AGREEMENT WITH FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY ON SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNOLOGICAL CO-OPERATION-STATEMENT BY MINISTER
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SC

Gérard Laprise

Social Credit

Mr. Gerard Laprise (Abitibi):

Mr. Speaker, while listening to the preliminary report presented by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce (Mr. Pepin) and seeing him table the agreement between the Government of Canada and the Government of the Federal Republic of Germany on Scientific and Technological Cooperation, we are happy to find that our relations with that country are better at the present time than they were thirty years ago.

I hope this agreement on scientific and technological cooperation will bring about advantages to both countries and mainly to Canada. However, this agreement should not be profitable to only one party as in some cases, where one puts in a horse and the other a rabbit. Agreements must be made on an equitable manner in order that the two parties may benefit from research made in either country. If expenses have been incurred to allow Canadian businessmen and industrialists to see the developments in Germany and compare their costs with those in Canada, I trust they were profitable, not only to those businessmen but also to the people who depend on them.

I am thinking, in particular, of the high rate of unemployment in Canada; we can compare it, for instance, to the rate in Germany, which the minister visited. Advice might also be sought, not only with regard to industry and business, but administration, to acquire experience. We won the war, it seems, but at first glance it would seem that we have lost the economic war to that highly industrialized country.

As we read the minister's report, as well as several others, it seems that the development of the European Common Market is of great concern to countries which do not take part in it, in particular to Commonwealth countries. It seems that as the mother country abandons its children, they find themselves helpless.

I note that, in his report, the minister says that he strongly encouraged Germany to step up its interest in Canadian agricultural products, which puzzles me. While Germany is invited to take an interest in Canadian

agricultural products, we feel free to buy some of these products which may be grown at home from other Commonwealth countries.

The Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce told the members of a Senate Committee on November 4, 1970, that we had imported in 1969 for $60 million worth of beef and lamb, and that in the statements made at that time, the government, the department had even taken the lead.

Now it seems to me that there is a conflict between the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce and the Department of Agriculture. Trade consists in buying for re-sale. I see no other reason for those invitations to trade.

So instead of buying from other Commonwealth countries goods we can produce, let us invite Germany to deal direct with Australia and New Zealand, to obtain the farm products it requires.

So, Mr. Speaker, I hope these efforts will be profitable for Canadian businessmen, for Canadian industry, and will contribute somewhat to solving Canada's unemployment problem.

Topic:   TABLING OF AGREEMENT WITH FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY ON SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNOLOGICAL CO-OPERATION-STATEMENT BY MINISTER
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AIRPORTS

April 27, 1971