February 19, 1970

NDP

Stanley Howard Knowles (N.D.P. House Leader; Whip of the N.D.P.)

New Democratic Party

Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

Shame.

[DOT] (5:50 p.m.)

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
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NDP

William Arnold Peters

New Democratic Party

Mr. Peters:

The day will come when Canadian farmers will not be able to produce all the food the world needs. I remember a few years ago how much trouble we had in my area getting a pulp and paper mill to locate there. It seemed that no one was interested in setting up a pulp and paper mill because there was a world surplus of pulp and paper. Today a number of pulp and paper mills are being built in Canada. We are going to find that we are five or ten years late in our maximum production of paper to meet the world demand.

February 19, 1970 COMMONS

One of these days we are going to find we are short in every commodity we produce in the agricultural sector. I do not think anyone in his right mind would say there is too much wheat, protein, butter or skim milk powder in the world. The difficulty is we have not found out how to dispose of that and provide a reasonable return for the farmer. This government talks about reducing everything to curb inflation. They have already reduced the farmer to a very low level in terms of any surplus. This has been deflationary. In most cases, the farmer has alreader been paying a 52 cent hold-back in the fluid milk market and a 26 cent hold-back on industrial milk. It is not the government that is paying this, it is the farmer. The farmer makes these payments to dispose of a surplus which he did not create directly.

I suggest this government would be well advised to restore the $10 million. For the first time, this government has had an offer from most of the farm organizations in the dairy industry to do something about overproduction. This is a problem that has always been with us and will continue in the future. It will have to be met by the farmers. In return for that, the government will have to guarantee them a parity price which should be at least the cost of production plus their wages.

I agree with the hon. member for Belle-chasse (Mr. Lambert) that the flat wage on the farm is probably 88 cents an hour or approximately at that level. The hired men of this country are only receiving $200 or $300 a month plus some fringe benefits. This means most farmers find that the hired man's wages represents the total profit on the business. I talked to some very efficient farmers, one of whom was my brother. I think he is probably as efficient as any farmer in my part of the country. He knows what is going on because he belongs to all the organizations. We have been on ROP for years. We have been operating a thoroughbred dairy herd for a number of years. My brother has some college education. He told me that the amount of money he had left out of a total income on his farm operation, which I consider is worth probably $150,000, amounted to less than $3,000. If he has to pay another hired man that $150,000 farm operation will be a non-operable operation.

For years most farmers have operated on depreciation. I can remember during the war when my father was very active in farm organizations. He talked about the sacrifice

DEBATES 3853

Government Dairy Policy the farmers were making on behalf of the war effort and the fact that they were making this contribution for patriotic reasons. That sort of patriotic contribution is still being made at the present time. The government is spending $50 million to aid bilingualism. They could probably spend another $50 million to provide a viable farm operation across this nation. The farmers will do all they can to help. The farm organizations have agreed they will provide, police and help operate a quota system for all milk. To the best of my knowledge, milk is being pooled in Ontario. This is also true in British Columbia. I understand that step is being considered in the province of Quebec. Milk will soon all be in one bucket, controlled by one agency for sales purposes.

The producers have said they will co-operate. They will set some limits. It is up to the government to decide whether they will pay a price which would enable these dairy farmers to continue their operation. If the aim of this government is to get rid of all these farmers here in the gallery, most of whom I imagine are small farmers, and have the farms operated by Steinberg's or the feed mills, then there will be vertical integration of these farm operations. All the government needs to do is cut back on dairy support as well as the support provided to some other segments of agriculture today, and we will have vertical integration.

The people of Canada will have to pay higher prices. Milk will cost 50 cents a quart. The price of butter and other agricultural products will increase. The Canadian people will then find out how stupid they have been to support the economies of this government. They are false economies which are not doing anything for the consumer or the agricultural segment of our nation.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
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LIB

Albert Béchard (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):

It being six o'clock and pursuant to an order of the House passed earlier today, I do now leave the chair until seven o'clock p.m.

At six o'clock the House took recess.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
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AFTER RECESS The House resumed at 7 p.m.


RA

Bernard Dumont

Ralliement Créditiste

Mr. Bernard Dumont (Frontenac):

Mr. Speaker, thank you for having recognized me right away and letting me express my opin-

February 19, 1970

Government Dairy Policy ions as there are relatively few members present.

We have before us today a notice of motion introduced by the hon. member for Belle-chasse (Mr. Lambert) stating that the House condemns government policy concerning the dairy industry.

The member for Bellechasse made a splendid statement, although he did not have enough time. He was prevented from completing the speech he had prepared. Last night, when we sat until midnight discussing the possibility of the resignation of the Postmaster General (Mr. Kierans), I happened, on my way out, to stop by and say hello to the hon. member for Bellechasse and he was still working at his speech. Unfortunately a government member prevented the hon. member for Bellechasse from completing the comments he had so expertly prepared. I deeply regret that the hon. member for Lac-Saint-Jean (Mr. Lessard) should have, through a flat refusal, prevented the hon. member for at least five minutes from continuing his remarks-

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
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LIB

Marcel Lessard

Liberal

Mr. Lessard:

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
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IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

Order. I shall recognize the hon. member for Lac-Saint-Jean in a moment, but I wish to remind the hon. member who now has the floor that he himself has only 15 minutes at his disposal. If he keeps talking about things irrelevant to the motion before the house, he may get into trouble. For the time being, another hon. member has risen on a question of privilege.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
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LIB

H.-Pit Lessard

Liberal

Mr. Lessard (Lac-Sainl-Jean):

Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege. I strongly object to the statement just made by the hon. member for Frontenac (Mr. Dumont). I have by no means denied the floor to the hon. member for Bellechasse (Mr. Lambert), and I would ask the hon. member for Frontenac to withdraw his charge. I said "a few more minutes". I did not say "no". Therefore, I would ask the hon. member to have the decency of withdrawing his remarks.

[DOT] (7:10 p.m.)

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
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RA

Bernard Dumont

Ralliement Créditiste

Mr. Dumont:

Mr. Speaker, what I was saying proves that at times we do not have the opportunity to express our views in this House. I myself have been expelled once from the House, in 1962, and even if the details which I want to point out are to take up the 15 minutes to which I am entitled, I believe that they deserve to be given.

In connection with the remarks of the hon. member for Lac-Saint-Jean, I can say that everybody was prepared to let the hon. member for Bellechasse go on with his comments except the hon. member for Lac-Saint-Jean, and we heard a "no" from there. I saw him say it and I will not withdraw my words. I blame the hon. member for Lac-Saint-Jean for having prevented the hon. member for Bellechasse from continuing with the authoritative account he was giving us.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
Permalink
LIB

H.-Pit Lessard

Liberal

Mr. Lessard (Lac-Sainl-Jean):

Mr. Speaker, on a question of privilege.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
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IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

The hon. member for Lac-Saint-Jean on a question of privilege.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
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LIB

Marcel Lessard

Liberal

Mr. Lessard (Lac-Saint-Jean):

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Frontenac is absolutely wrong when he thinks he heard a "no" from this side of the House. I want him to believe that I am not the one who said no, and I forbid him to doubt my word, which in my opinion is as good as his.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
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IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

Order, please. I must interrupt the hon. member for Lac-Saint-Jean as well as the hon. member for Frontenac. Pursuant to the Standing Orders of the House, an hon. member cannot doubt the word of another hon. member. If the hon. member for Lac-Saint-Jean made a statement along the lines he has indicated, we all have to recognize it.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
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RA

Bernard Dumont

Ralliement Créditiste

Mr. Dumont:

Mr. Speaker, since the hon. member for Lac-Saint-Jean can defend himself so well and is so aggressive, I would ask him to name the hon. member who said "no", as he did say that that "no" came from his side of the House.

In any event, Mr. Speaker, we will abide by your comments and we will limit ourselves to the problem being debated tonight, namely that of the dairy industry, and I dare hope that there will be no more interruptions.

As a member of the Standing Committee on Agriculture, I had the opportunity of visiting a part of Canada and to become familiar with the existing problems. Everywhere, I found nothing but affluence and surpluses, and the real problem of the Eastern farmers is one of surplus production, which is, by the same token, a curse. They are punished because they produce too much. This is the policy of this government which was to ensure social justice, but is not keeping its promises.

February 19, 1970 COMMONS

Now, a few moments ago, even though the hon. member for Lac-Saint-Jean made some protests I must say that I knew him years ago as a perfect gentleman. But, today, because he has changed his political allegiance and is a member of the party with enough electoral funds and to spare, we do not hear him speak as he used to. And our farmers-

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
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LIB

Marcel Lessard

Liberal

Mr. Lessard (Lac-Saint-Jean):

Mr. Speaker,

I rise on a question of privilege.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
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IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

Order. The hon. member for Frontenac.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
Permalink
RA

Bernard Dumont

Ralliement Créditiste

Mr. Dumont:

The hon. member-

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
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LIB

Marcel Lessard

Liberal

Mr. Lessard (Lac-Saint-Jean):

Mr. Speaker-

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
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IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

Order. I shall recognize the hon. member, but 1 must say here that there is a question of privilege, and that is why he has the floor.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
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LIB

Marcel Lessard

Liberal

Mr. Lessard (Lac-Saint-Jean):

Mr. Speaker,

I am sorry to intervene, but if the hon. member for Frontenac has nothing to say regarding the farm problem, and if he has only personal remarks to make about me, I think that he proves once more to the people now in the galleries that he lacks the judgment needed to discuss this problem.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Sub-subtopic:   ALLOTTED DAY S.O. 58-INSUFFICIENCY OF GOVERNMENT MILK POLICY
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February 19, 1970