October 24, 1969

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

WAYS AND MEANS

LIB

Herbert Eser (Herb) Gray (Minister Without Portfolio)

Liberal

Hon. H. E. Gray (Minister without Portfolio):

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Section 1 of Standing Order No. 60 I wish to lay on the table of the House copies in English and French of a notice of ways and means motion proposing amendments to the Customs Tariff and a consequential amendment to the Excise Tax Act. The notice of motion is substantially the same as that required for Bill C-212 of the last session which was given first reading by the House on June 27. Bill C-212 was based on the notice of motion in the budget speech of June 3.

I should like to table, pursuant to the same standing order, copies in French and in English of a notice of motion of ways and means to amend the Income Tax Act.

This notice of motion is the same as the one given on June 3 in connection with the budget speech and which was followed by first reading of Bill C-211.

Finally, I would like to ask the consent of the House to permit the material that I am now tabling to be printed as an appendix to Votes and Proceedings and to Hansard.

Topic:   ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
Subtopic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Sub-subtopic:   TABLING OF MOTIONS TO AMEND CUSTOMS TARIFF, EXCISE TAX AND INCOME TAX ACTS
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IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

Is it agreed?

Topic:   ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
Subtopic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Sub-subtopic:   TABLING OF MOTIONS TO AMEND CUSTOMS TARIFF, EXCISE TAX AND INCOME TAX ACTS
Permalink
?

Some hon. Members:

Agreed.

[Editor's Note: For text of motions see appendix.]

Topic:   ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
Subtopic:   WAYS AND MEANS
Sub-subtopic:   TABLING OF MOTIONS TO AMEND CUSTOMS TARIFF, EXCISE TAX AND INCOME TAX ACTS
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DESIGNATION OF ORDER OF THE DAY TO DEBATE WAYS AND MEANS MOTIONS

LIB

Donald Stovel Macdonald (President of the Privy Council; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Hon. Donald S. Macdonald (President of the Privy Council):

Mr. Speaker, pursuant to Standing Order 60(2) I should like to ask that an order of the day be designated for the consideration of the ways and means motions tabled this day.

Topic:   DESIGNATION OF ORDER OF THE DAY TO DEBATE WAYS AND MEANS MOTIONS
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PC

Gerald William Baldwin (Official Opposition House Leader; Progressive Conservative Party House Leader)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Baldwin:

Why not for next session too in case you don't get around to it?

Topic:   DESIGNATION OF ORDER OF THE DAY TO DEBATE WAYS AND MEANS MOTIONS
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COMPANY OF YOUNG CANADIANS

LIB

Donald Stovel Macdonald (President of the Privy Council; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Hon. Donald S. Macdonald (President of the Privy Council):

Mr. Speaker, the House will recall the statement made by my colleague the Secretary of State in respect of the Company of Young Canadians. In view of the fact it has not been possible to give notice, I would like to ask for the unanimous consent of the House to introduce a motion for the purpose of establishing an order of reference for the Standing Committee on Broadcasting, Films and Assistance to the Arts. The motion would be in the following terms:

That the Standing Committee on Broadcasting, Films and Assistance to the Arts be empowered to consider and make a final report to the House, not later than December 5th, 1969, upon the legislative framework, organization, and operations of the Company of Young Canadians, and that, for the purpose of its inquiry, the committee be empowered to retain the services of counsel and to adjourn from place to place within Canada, and that the clerks, counsel, and the necessary supporting staff be authorized to accompany the committee.

As I indicated, unanimous consent would be necessary under the rules to introduce the motion at this time. I believe the context of the committee motion has been discussed in the various comers of the house.

Topic:   DESIGNATION OF ORDER OF THE DAY TO DEBATE WAYS AND MEANS MOTIONS
Subtopic:   COMPANY OF YOUNG CANADIANS
Sub-subtopic:   ORDER OF REFERENCE TO COMMITTEE- REQUEST FOR CONSENT TO INTRODUCE MOTION
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IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

Does the minister have leave to introduce the motion at this time?

Topic:   DESIGNATION OF ORDER OF THE DAY TO DEBATE WAYS AND MEANS MOTIONS
Subtopic:   COMPANY OF YOUNG CANADIANS
Sub-subtopic:   ORDER OF REFERENCE TO COMMITTEE- REQUEST FOR CONSENT TO INTRODUCE MOTION
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NDP

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

New Democratic Party

Mr. T. C. Douglas (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):

Mr. Speaker, we do not desire to withhold consent, but I should like to say something when the motion is before the house. I think it would also be helpful if the minister had copies. I have seen a copy in the hands of a member for about two minutes, having looked over his shoulder, but I should like to have a copy of the motion if the minister has an extra one available.

Topic:   DESIGNATION OF ORDER OF THE DAY TO DEBATE WAYS AND MEANS MOTIONS
Subtopic:   COMPANY OF YOUNG CANADIANS
Sub-subtopic:   ORDER OF REFERENCE TO COMMITTEE- REQUEST FOR CONSENT TO INTRODUCE MOTION
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LIB

Donald Stovel Macdonald (President of the Privy Council; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale):

Do I have

unanimous consent?

Topic:   DESIGNATION OF ORDER OF THE DAY TO DEBATE WAYS AND MEANS MOTIONS
Subtopic:   COMPANY OF YOUNG CANADIANS
Sub-subtopic:   ORDER OF REFERENCE TO COMMITTEE- REQUEST FOR CONSENT TO INTRODUCE MOTION
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IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

If there is agreement the motion will be put to the house and, of course, it will be open to hon. members to debate the motion. Is it agreed?

Topic:   DESIGNATION OF ORDER OF THE DAY TO DEBATE WAYS AND MEANS MOTIONS
Subtopic:   COMPANY OF YOUNG CANADIANS
Sub-subtopic:   ORDER OF REFERENCE TO COMMITTEE- REQUEST FOR CONSENT TO INTRODUCE MOTION
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?

Some hon. Members:

Agreed.

October 24, 1969

Company of Young Canadians MOTION OF REFERENCE TO STANDING COMMITTEE

Topic:   DESIGNATION OF ORDER OF THE DAY TO DEBATE WAYS AND MEANS MOTIONS
Subtopic:   COMPANY OF YOUNG CANADIANS
Sub-subtopic:   ORDER OF REFERENCE TO COMMITTEE- REQUEST FOR CONSENT TO INTRODUCE MOTION
Permalink
LIB

Donald Stovel Macdonald (President of the Privy Council; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Hon. Donald S. Macdonald (President of the Privy Council) moved:

That the Standing Committee on Broadcasting, Films and Assistance to the Arts be empowered to consider and make a final report to the House, not later than December 5th, 1969, upon the legislative framework, organization, and operations of the Company of Young Canadians, and that, for the purpose of its inquiry, the committee be empowered to retain the services of counsel and to adjourn from place to place within Canada, and that the clerk, counsel, and the necessary supporting staff be authorized to accompany the committee.

[DOT] (11:10 a.m.)

Topic:   DESIGNATION OF ORDER OF THE DAY TO DEBATE WAYS AND MEANS MOTIONS
Subtopic:   COMPANY OF YOUNG CANADIANS
Sub-subtopic:   ORDER OF REFERENCE TO COMMITTEE- REQUEST FOR CONSENT TO INTRODUCE MOTION
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NDP

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

New Democratic Party

Mr. T. C. Douglas (Nanaimo-Cowichan-The Islands):

Mr. Speaker, normally we would have no objection and, as a matter of fact, would welcome terms of reference to a committee of the House to look into the legislative framework, the organization and operations of the Company of Young Canadians. For some time we have felt there is a need for an evaluation of the work of this organization. and an examination of the Act, which is lacking in clarification on a number of points, as well as the need for a restructuring of the organization itself. Consequently we cannot object to the motion on those grounds.

However, I do wish to express my misgivings because the motion naturally is closely associated in the public mind with the statement made by the Secretary of State (Mr. Pelletier) last Wednesday when he spoke of the fact that unsubstantiated charges of subversion had been made against the Company of Young Canadians. The public naturally will assume that the main task this committee will have before it will be to deal with the charges that have been made. The fact that in the motion before the House the committee is to be empowered to retain the services of counsel only strengthens my misgivings in that regard. If the committee is to look into the structure and legal framework of this organization and evaluate its work, then of course we will be very pleased to support it. But I do think we should express our fears that in the light of the statement of the Secretary of State and in the light of the fact that the committee is to be empowered to retain counsel there is every probability that the inquiry could escalate into a witch hunt.

If Mr. Saulnier, one of the persons who made these charges of subversion, is called and names names, those names will appear in the public press, and the person so named

[Mr. Speaker.l

will have the right to appear before the committee. If Mr. Anthony Malcolm, the vicepresident of the Quebec section of the Liberal Federation of Canada, is called to substantiate his charges that there are some 27 persons guilty of subversion, 18 of whom were or are members of the Company of Young Canadians, and certainly if he makes these charges before the committee, then the persons so named will be entitled to appear before the committee, and the House of Commons could find itself conducting a kangaroo court.

I am sure every member of the House is concerned about the question of subversion. There are two ways to deal with subversion. One is that if there is sufficient evidence that a person has been guilty of an illegal act he should be charged in the courts. If the person has not been guilty of an illegal act but has conducted himself in a manner unbecoming to an organization supported by public funds, he should be disciplined. If there is no provision under the Act for the executive director to discipline him, the government should ask the House to amend the Act to give the executive director adequate power. But I think a word of caution is necessary. We must remind ourselves that the House of Commons is neither a court of law nor an administrative tribunal. So far as our members on that committee are concerned they will do everything possible to try to see that a House of Commons committee is not used to do things which could more properly be done elsewhere.

Topic:   DESIGNATION OF ORDER OF THE DAY TO DEBATE WAYS AND MEANS MOTIONS
Subtopic:   COMPANY OF YOUNG CANADIANS
Sub-subtopic:   ORDER OF REFERENCE TO COMMITTEE- REQUEST FOR CONSENT TO INTRODUCE MOTION
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RA

David Réal Caouette

Ralliement Créditiste

Mr. Real Caouette (Temiscamingue):

First of all, Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out to the President of the Privy Council (Mr. Macdonald) that the motion just introduced is in English only, not in French. Since it is generally agreed that all federal services should be bilingual, I think that the President of the Privy Council should have had his motion translated so we could read it in French.

As for the motion itself, I believe that most Canadians will be glad to see how promptly the government is prepared to appoint the committee due to report by December 5th on the activities and operations of the Company of Young Canadians.

Everyone knows about the charges that have been made, especially by Mr. Saulnier of Montreal and I think it is time the nation and, above all, that the Canadian Parliament be made aware of those dealings if they are indeed objectionable. We should be told of the charges laid down so that we may see if

Oclober 24, 1969

there are grounds for them in order not to finance subversion with the Canadian taxpayers' money.

It is high time for the Parliament to take a firm stand and I was pleased by the recent statement of the Secretary of State of Canada (Mr. Pelletier) and by that of the Right Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Trudeau), to the effect that subversion and terrorism must be ended, especially in the province of Quebec; the Ral-liement Creditiste supports unconditionally the setting up in the earliest future of that committee which will report to us by December 5 next.

Topic:   DESIGNATION OF ORDER OF THE DAY TO DEBATE WAYS AND MEANS MOTIONS
Subtopic:   COMPANY OF YOUNG CANADIANS
Sub-subtopic:   ORDER OF REFERENCE TO COMMITTEE- REQUEST FOR CONSENT TO INTRODUCE MOTION
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PC

Alfred Dryden Hales

Progressive Conservative

Mr. A. D. Hales (Wellington):

Mr. Speaker, just before you put the motion there are one or two observations I should like to make. May I say first of all that I certainly support the reference of this matter to the committee, but I am afraid that it may entail great expense and another call on the taxpayers' money. I think that at the early stage of this investigation it is unnecessary to hire counsel. Counsel from the Department of Justice should be sufficient, at least to start with.

I also believe that the committee should not be given the authority to adjourn from place to place. I think it would be much more in line with the drive toward economy of the present government to subpoena the witnesses who are to be heard and have them come to Ottawa. Then all the meetings would be held here and Members of Parliament could attend those meetings as well as attend the House.

Topic:   DESIGNATION OF ORDER OF THE DAY TO DEBATE WAYS AND MEANS MOTIONS
Subtopic:   COMPANY OF YOUNG CANADIANS
Sub-subtopic:   ORDER OF REFERENCE TO COMMITTEE- REQUEST FOR CONSENT TO INTRODUCE MOTION
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October 24, 1969