May 8, 1969

NDP

Lorne Edmund Nystrom

New Democratic Party

Mr. Lome Nystrom (Yorkion-Melville):

Mr. Speaker, the first thing I wish to do is to congratulate the hon. member for Moose Jaw (Mr. Skoberg) upon moving the amendment to this bill. I would also like to compliment him on his remarks, and I wish to support them. I also wish to say the same thing with respect to the hon. member for Fraser Valley West (Mr. Rose).

As we all know, Bill S-ll, an act to incorporate Aetna Casualty Company of Canada, was introduced in the Senate, and was first discussed in this house by the hon. member for St. Paul's (Mr. Wahn) on December 19 last. We must ask many questions when we debate a bill like this, and I would like to hear the hon. member for St. Paul's answer many of the questions that not only I but other hon. members -wish to ask about bills of this sort. We have been asking questions relating to such things as foreign ownership, the control of the company, and why this company wishes to be incorporated in Canada.

May 8, 1969

Topic:   PRIVATE BILLS
Subtopic:   AETNA CASUALTY COMPANY OF CANADA
Permalink

THE ROYAL ASSENT


A message was delivered by Major C. R. Lamoureux, Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, as follows: Mr. Speaker, it is the desire of the Honourable the Deputy of His Excellency the Governor General that this Honourable House attend him immediately in the chamber of the Honourable the Senate. Accordingly, Mr. Speaker with the house went up to the Senate Chamber. [DOT] (5:50 p.m.) And being returned: Mr. Speaker informed the house that the Deputy Governor General had been pleased to give, in Her Majesty's name, the royal assent to the following Bills: An Act to amend the Canadian Overseas Telecommunication Corporation Act. An Act to incorporate Transcoastal Life Assurance Company. An Act respecting The Quebec Savings Bank. An Act to amend the Co-operative Credit Associations Act. An Act to amend the Farm Machinery Syndicates Credit Act. An Act to prevent the introduction or spreading of pests injurious to plants. An Act to provide compensation to farmers whose agricultural products are contaminated by pesticide residue, and to provide for appeals from compensation awards. An Act to amend the Income Tax Act and the Estate Tax Act.


IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

Is it the wish of the house that we now call it six o'clock?

Topic:   THE ROYAL ASSENT
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?

Some hon. Members:

Agreed.

Topic:   THE ROYAL ASSENT
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IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

It being six o'clock I do now leave the chair.

At six o'clock the house took recess.

Topic:   THE ROYAL ASSENT
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AFTER RECESS The house resumed at 8 p.m.


GOVERNMENT ORDERS

CRIMINAL CODE


The house resumed consideration of Bill C-150, to amend the Criminal Code, the Parole Act, the Penitentiary Act, the Prisons and Reformatories Act and to make certain Criminal Code consequential amendments to the Combines Investigation Act, the Customs Tariff and the National Defence Act, as reported (with amendments) from the Standing Committee on Justice and Legal Affairs, and motion No. 37, Mr. Rodrigue.


?

Jean-Paul Matte

Mr. Matie:

Mr. Speaker, I still have five or six minutes left. I was discussing the amendment requiring that the certificate be signed by three members of the committee, when in its opinion, the life of the mother cannot be kept safe from danger with the continuation of her pregnancy.

In order to avoid any mistake or medical error, it is important to get the formal guarantee duly signed by the committee and permitting the abortion so that should one or even two - of the three members of the committee be too permissive there would still be a safeguard, since all three members have to sign. It seems to us that this is a point which should be considered very seriously because should abortion ever be accepted, although we are still against it, we are trying to sensitize members and public opinion to that problem.

We realize more and more that the problem is far from being settled and that thanks to our comments, a good number of people have been aware for a while now, that the legislation which is being crammed down their throats-and I did say crammed-is not all it should be.

If people consider all the amendments which we have introduced, particularly the amendment which we are discussing now, they will easily detect the direction we want to give this legislation, so that even the most prudish, the most scrupulous people could say: "At least we know that they will not go beyond just and reasonable limits, and that all those people who would have liked to use this legislation to achieve more or less legitimate purposes, will find themselves foiled.

Mr. Speaker, our efforts to see the Minister of Justice take this into consideration are not prompted by our desire to win a battle and prove that we were right. It is not that at all. We simply want to better protect society. It is this protection that we have set our hearts on.

And if we did not have so many examples or experiences based on facts, we could perhaps be less informed on the subject and our remarks would be more or less useful.

But when we rely on the experience of all those who accepted abortion, when we consider the evidence given last year on Bill

May 8, 1969

Criminal Code

C-195 and this year on Bill C-150, we believe that government members should set aside their pride and admit once and for all that this bill C-150 includes clauses that must definitely be reexamined, clauses the effects of which are so serious that we cannot allow ourselves to pass them without sounding a note of warning.

When we are accused of being a mere handful to maintain that certain clauses should be opposed, it is somewhat false considering the stand taken in this house, for if we applied the solution advocated by the leader of the Ralliement creditiste, the hon. member for Temiscamingue (Mr. Caouette), we would ask the people themselves, by means of a referendum, what they think about it.

And if we could say that 90 per cent of the members in this house are in favour, and 10 per cent against, we would still maintain that the people as a whole are against. This is no surprise to us, considering the many empty seats in the house.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   CRIMINAL CODE
Sub-subtopic:   REPORT STAGE
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LIB

Albert Béchard (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):

Order. I would ask the hon. member to limit his remarks to the amendment, which reads as follows:

-"has by certificate in writing signed by the three members of the committee, stated that in its opinion, the life of the mother cannot be kept safe from danger with the continuation of her pregnancy".

I wonder what these empty chairs have to do with this amendment.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   CRIMINAL CODE
Sub-subtopic:   REPORT STAGE
Permalink
RA

René Matte

Ralliement Créditiste

Mr. Matte:

The empty chairs are in perfect harmony with the empty heads which one sees on the Treasury benches-

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   CRIMINAL CODE
Sub-subtopic:   REPORT STAGE
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LIB

Albert Béchard (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):

Order. I would like to remind the hon. member of the warning that was given to one of his colleagues this afternoon asking him to weigh his words carefully.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   CRIMINAL CODE
Sub-subtopic:   REPORT STAGE
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RA

René Matte

Ralliement Créditiste

Mr. Matte:

Mr. Speaker, the whole thing boils down to this: if the house were ever to accept section 18 of the bill concerning abortion, and if the amendment presented by the hon. member for Beauce were added to it, the minister and ourselves would have an opportunity to have section 18 adopted without offending the particular principles of the majority of the people, simply because we believe, as an important part if not an immense majority of the people, that one could think: "The guarantee is really foolproof, seeing that this certificate must be

signed by the three members of the committee, when all three are fully convinced that there is no other way to preserve the life of the mother." This guarantee would make it possible to accept the legislation under certain conditions.

This is why such an amendment would enable us to agree with the minister, and to stop, once and for all, this debate which has lasted far too long.

[DOT] (8:10 p.m.)

The Aciing Speaker (Mr. Bechard): Is the

house ready for the question? All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   CRIMINAL CODE
Sub-subtopic:   REPORT STAGE
Permalink
?

Some hon. Members:

Yea.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   CRIMINAL CODE
Sub-subtopic:   REPORT STAGE
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LIB

Albert Béchard (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):

those opposed will please say nay.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   CRIMINAL CODE
Sub-subtopic:   REPORT STAGE
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?

Some hon. Members:

Nay.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   CRIMINAL CODE
Sub-subtopic:   REPORT STAGE
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LIB

Albert Béchard (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):

In my

opinion, the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   CRIMINAL CODE
Sub-subtopic:   REPORT STAGE
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LIB

Albert Béchard (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bechard):

Pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 75 (11), the recorded division on the motion stands deferred.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   CRIMINAL CODE
Sub-subtopic:   REPORT STAGE
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May 8, 1969