January 16, 1969

ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS

EXTERNAL AFFAIRS

LIB

Donald Stovel Macdonald (President of the Privy Council; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Hon. Donald S. Macdonald (President of the Privy Council):

Mr. Speaker, there have been discussions with respect to the work of the external affairs committee and I think there is general agreement in the house that it would be desirable to have a further order of reference to the committee so that it may continue with the order of work that has already been planned. I believe there would be unanimous agreement to the acceptance of an order in the following terms:

That the standing committee on external affairs and national defence be instructed, and hereby is instructed, to hear evidence on and to consider the national defence policy of Canada.

If it is acceptable to the house that could be made an order of the house.

Topic:   ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DISCUSSION OF NATIONAL DEFENCE POLICY IN STANDING COMMITTEE
Permalink
IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

Is this so agreed?

Topic:   ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DISCUSSION OF NATIONAL DEFENCE POLICY IN STANDING COMMITTEE
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NDP

David Lewis (Parliamentary Leader of the N.D.P.)

New Democratic Party

Mr. David Lewis (York South):

With respect, Mr. Speaker, may I ask the President of the Privy Council (Mr. Macdonald) why the proposed order is limited to defence policy rather than to defence and foreign policy?

Topic:   ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DISCUSSION OF NATIONAL DEFENCE POLICY IN STANDING COMMITTEE
Permalink
LIB

Donald Stovel Macdonald (President of the Privy Council; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale):

Well, I gather that has been the subject matter of discussion in various comers. The timetable that has been planned was related to defence policy rather than to the broader area.

Topic:   ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DISCUSSION OF NATIONAL DEFENCE POLICY IN STANDING COMMITTEE
Permalink
NDP

David Lewis (Parliamentary Leader of the N.D.P.)

New Democratic Party

Mr. Lewis:

With your permission, Mr. Speaker, may I take another moment to suggest to the President of the Privy Council as well as to the chairman of the committee that the information I received from the hon. member for Greenwood (Mr. Brewin) before he immersed himself in French was not to this effect. However, whatever the agreement may have been, is it not better to have both questions considered? You cannot really separate defence from foreign policy and it does

not seem very sensible to limit the order in this way.

Topic:   ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DISCUSSION OF NATIONAL DEFENCE POLICY IN STANDING COMMITTEE
Permalink
LIB

Donald Stovel Macdonald (President of the Privy Council; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Macdonald (Rosedale):

It appears, Mr. Speaker, that there is not unanimous consent to the form of the order I suggested. Perhaps, therefore, we could have further consultation later today to find what is acceptable.

Topic:   ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   DISCUSSION OF NATIONAL DEFENCE POLICY IN STANDING COMMITTEE
Permalink

RESEARCH

"HUDSON 70"-CANADIAN OCEANOGF.APHIC PROJECT

LIB

John James Greene (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources)

Liberal

Hon. J. J. Greene (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources):

Mr. Speaker, I should like to advise the house of a Canadian oceanographic project of significant impact, we believe not only to Canada but to the world. The Department of Energy, Mines and Resources science ship, C.S.S. Hudson, will set out from Halifax in November, 1969, on an oceanographic expedition of 41,000 nautical miles and completely encircle North and South America in Canada's first oceanographic venture on a world wide scale. It is interesting to note that this is the first circumnavigation of the two continents by any ship and that the Hudson is the only fully equipped scientific vessel to have this capacity. This expedition will be known as "Hudson 70".

Hudson 70 will be a one year expedition through the Atlantic, Antarctic, Pacific and Arctic Oceans. Aboard will be scientists from the federal Department of Energy, Mines and Resources, other federal departments, Canadian universities and American oceanographic institutes and universities. Investigations will range from ocean circulation studies to geological surveys of Canada's continental shelf on its east, west, and northern coasts, and include biological, geophysical, chemical and other oceanographic studies.

[DOT] (2:10 pjn.)

The scientific staff will be drawn largely from the Atlantic Oceanographic Laboratory of the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources, and the Marine Ecology Laboratory of the Fisheries Research Board, both at the Bedford Institute. Scientists from other institutions, Dalhousie University, University of British Columbia, Defence Research Establishment Atlantic (Defence Research Board), and other branches of the Department of

January 16, 1969

Ocean Research

Energy, Mines and Resources. Also participating will be scientists from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, and the Department of Oceanography of Oregon State University in the United States.

In this age of science, a country of Canada's size must deploy her scientific resources wisely. We cannot afford to be in the vanguard in all aspects of science, and must choose wisely the disciplines wherein we have the capacity and which will be of greatest benefit to Canadians. The field of oceanography is one where Canada does have capacity, and where research can be of great benefit in Canada's future. The Bedford Institute of Oceanography was opened but six years ago, and has already achieved considerable scientific stature. Canada has the longest coastline and thence the greatest potential for undersea resources of any country in the world. These resources, even though yet largely untapped, are the heritage of all of the people of Canada.

Apart from domestic interest, all mankind has a great interest in the development of undersea resources, if the challenge of meeting the needs for food and economic progress in a world whose population is to double in the next thirty five years is to be met. The president of the United States recently urged countries of the world to embark on expanded studies of the world's oceans during the period 1970-80 to be identified as the "International Decade of World Ocean Exploration". The United Nations subsequently endorsed, by formal resolution, this concept and the designated period of 1970-80. This research voyage will be Canada's contribution to the International Decade of World Ocean Exploration.

In accord with the government's intent to achieve closer ties with the countries of Latin America, those South American countries having an interest in these studies and who themselves have facilities in this area, will be asked to participate to the extent that is possible in keeping with the objectives of the mission. I had the opportunity to discuss this possibility with my counterparts in some of the South American countries during the recent Canadian mission. Scientists of my department have already been in communication with Chilean scientists regarding the possible program off the Chilean coast.

A study of the geological and geophysical features of Canada's continental shelves is the prime objective of the northern part of the

voyage. Surveys, which will use to full advantage the complex of advanced equipment assembled on board the Hudson are being planned in areas off the coast of British Columbia, the Mackenzie River delta, in passages through the Canadian Archipelago, and in Baffin Bay.

The planned geological and geophysical studies in the Arctic will help to assess the mineral and other resource potential of the area, extend understanding of the evolution of continents and of ocean basins, such as Baffin Bay, and test the theory of continental drift. The surveys will form part of the extensive program of geological and geophysical exploration in Canada by the Department of Energy, Mines and Resources; scientists from the observatories branch and the Geological Survey of Canada will be involved in the operations and planning.

In the South Atlantic, South Pacific and Antarctic Oceans, the program consists of closely interrelated studies in biological, chemical and physical oceanography and underwater acoustics, geodesy, geophysics and geology.

Topic:   RESEARCH
Subtopic:   "HUDSON 70"-CANADIAN OCEANOGF.APHIC PROJECT
Permalink
?

Some hon. Members:

Oh, oh.

Topic:   RESEARCH
Subtopic:   "HUDSON 70"-CANADIAN OCEANOGF.APHIC PROJECT
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LIB

John James Greene (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources)

Liberal

Mr. Greene:

I am sorry this is a little over the heads of some of my friends over there, Mr. Speaker.

During the transit of the ship down the Atlantic and up the Pacific, an experiment will be conducted by scientists from the United States in measuring the slope of the ocean surface to obtain information which is vital to the precise calculation of the volumes of water transported by ocean currents.

The ship will spend several weeks in the vicinity of Cape Horn investigating, by new techniques, the circumpolar current, the greatest in the world, which flows around Antarctica and passes between Cape Horn and the Antarctica continent.

The Hudson is scheduled to return to Halifax in October of 1970. It may be well known that underwater research in the realm of the oceans will be as important-

Topic:   RESEARCH
Subtopic:   "HUDSON 70"-CANADIAN OCEANOGF.APHIC PROJECT
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IND

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Independent

Mr. Speaker:

Order, please. The Chair has exercised all possible patience in connection with the statement now being made by the minister. He knows of course the provisions of standing order 15. My understanding of this standing order is that statements should be reasonably brief. I have the impression that the minister's statement is unreasonable in

January 16, 1969

that respect, and I hope he will bring it to a conclusion as soon as possible.

The minister will recognize that it is embarrassing to the Chair to have to remind hon. members of the opposition that according to the standing order their comments on ministerial statements must be brief. It is more difficult for the Chair to do this when we have statements of the length now being made by the minister.

Topic:   RESEARCH
Subtopic:   "HUDSON 70"-CANADIAN OCEANOGF.APHIC PROJECT
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LIB

John James Greene (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources)

Liberal

Mr. Greene:

Mr. Speaker, I wil conclude forthwith. I think this statement is extremely reasonable, if not brief.

Topic:   RESEARCH
Subtopic:   "HUDSON 70"-CANADIAN OCEANOGF.APHIC PROJECT
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?

An hon. Member:

It should also be

intelligible.

Topic:   RESEARCH
Subtopic:   "HUDSON 70"-CANADIAN OCEANOGF.APHIC PROJECT
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LIB

John James Greene (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources)

Liberal

Mr. Greene:

It is intelligible to those who understand this subject, Mr. Speaker.

It is our belief that Canada can play a full and worthy part in this realm of science. The exciting scientific adventure of Hudson 70 we believe will be an important step toward this end.

Topic:   RESEARCH
Subtopic:   "HUDSON 70"-CANADIAN OCEANOGF.APHIC PROJECT
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PC

Gordon Harvey Aiken

Progressive Conservative

Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):

Mr. Speaker, I think unknown to yourself, the minister had practically completed his trip around Cape Horn before you stopped him. He had almost completed his statement, which he kindly sent me earlier. I feel that any comment I could make on the statement would be somewhat anticlimatic because I understand the minister has already had a press conference today on this particular statement, during which he made this statement.

I am sure the minister must find it exhilarating that his first announcement in the house, after his illness, is a pleasant one, rather than one like the unpleasant announcements he had to make when he took over his department earlier this year. I hope this is a good start which will be continued, and that one program after another of this nature will be announced by his office.

The general outline of the expeditions given to the house by the minister can only meet with approval. Canada, with its extensive shoreline and tremendous untapped continental shelf, badly needs more complete knowledge of the ocean and its resources. At first glance one might question the advantage of proceeding into the southern seas and around Cape Horn, but the movement of waters and marine life around the whole continent does affect our own shores. Work

Ocean Research

around Canadian coastal waters is very important.

In concluding, may I say that the statement by the minister indicates the germ of an idea developing in the science policy of this country. This is an acknowledgement that Canada should select the areas in which we can best develop scientific research, without trying to cover the whole field of science, with the limited resources at our disposal.

I noticed in a newspaper that a similar proposal was made earlier this week by Dr. Hans Selye, a well-known medical researcher. We approve of the theory of this research and the approach which appears to be indicated by this statement, and we welcome the announcement.

[DOT] (2:20 p.m.)

Topic:   RESEARCH
Subtopic:   "HUDSON 70"-CANADIAN OCEANOGF.APHIC PROJECT
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NDP

David Orlikow

New Democratic Party

Mr. David Orlikow (Winnipeg North):

Mr. Speaker, I am not an expert on science, as is the minister; therefore I shall not say very much about the value of this project. I am certain it will have a great deal of value and much scientific information will be obtained from it. At the same time, it seems to me that while the minister has said that a country like Canada must deploy its scientific resources wisely and that we cannot do everything, it is rather difficult to square this project with other announcements the minister has made in recent months.

The HARP project sponsored by McGill University has been scrapped. The construction of the Queen Elizabeth Observatory in British Columbia was announced at the time of the visit of the Queen. That project too has been scrapped. The ING project, which was to give tremendous impetus to our research in the field of nuclear physics, has been scrapped. Medical research is being hindered by the cut-back in the construction of hospitals.

I think members of the house, especially those on the committee which will deal with the estimates, ought to look very carefully into the question of how much say the science secretariat and the science council had in the decision that this particular project was more important and would bring greater benefits to our country than those which on earlier occasions the minister announced, and which have subsequently been scrapped.

It seems to me that without this kind of information we are left with the feeling that the scientific projects which will be begun in Canada will depend upon which minister speaks the loudest in cabinet meetings, or which person in the treasury department

January 16, 1969

4358 COMMONS

Juvenile Delinquents Act Amendment decides what shall and what shall not be done. I believe we need to be told in detail at some point exactly how the government chooses what shall and what shall not be done.

Topic:   RESEARCH
Subtopic:   "HUDSON 70"-CANADIAN OCEANOGF.APHIC PROJECT
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RA

Léonel Beaudoin

Ralliement Créditiste

Mr. Leonel Beaudoin (Richmond):

Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the minister of Energy, Mines and Resources for his statement; however I do not approve the remarks of some hon. members who said that the statement was a little too long. I think that the minister is not to blame but his officials.

First of all, I express to the minister my best wishes to the minister and I hope his health will get better still. I sat on the committee on Energy, Mines and Resources and I noticed that we did not see him very often because of his illness. I hope that he will now enjoy good health and that he will be able to come and visit us quite often.

I think that it would be in order first to congratulate the minister for taking the initiative in doing more research; however, in order that the research intended to find riches in the marine subsoil be profitable, I think it would be urgent for the government to provide for special credits. In fact, I understand that it is a lack of funds which prevents the department from proceeding with its work in the research field.

I would like also the government to think of voting enough money to ensure that the project is carried through and that the industries are prevented from polluting the inland waters.

Topic:   RESEARCH
Subtopic:   "HUDSON 70"-CANADIAN OCEANOGF.APHIC PROJECT
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January 16, 1969