April 19, 1967

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Rémi Paul

Mr. Prud'homme:

In case the hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre wonders, I did my share in the Canadian armed forces. I was in Shilo, Manitoba, for two years, and I was in a position to see that what the minister advocates is correct. I shall now continue quoting:

Another problem that worries me and indeed frightens me, is that this plan was put forward over two years ago. Everyone was informed of it and the intention of this plan was obvious to any thoughtful man or officer. What were these senior officers doing in the last two years? They have had every opportunity to express themselves. Have they just finally found their way through on this business? This frightens me. Is this an indication of the lethargy in thinking in our services? Fortunately, I have spoken to many young and dedicated officers and they are all enthusiastic about the plan. Of course, some others will have to "pull up their socks" and perhaps they shudder a bit.

And he continues as follows:

To our politicians, please get thinking about Canada. Forget about your party status. This is a real opportunity and you will be happy and proud you had a chance to help.

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PC

Gordon Minto Churchill

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Churchill:

Who signed that article? [Translation]

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Rémi Paul

Mr. Prud'homme:

I would ask you now to hear what Commodore A. B. Fraser-Harris has to say:

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PC

Gordon Minto Churchill

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Churchill:

Would the hon. member identify the author?

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Rémi Paul

Mr. Prud'homme:

This is by the Canadian Press of November 9, 1966.

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PC

Gordon Minto Churchill

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Churchill:

But who is the author of the letter?

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Rémi Paul

Mr. Prud'homme:

Air Vice Marshal Sully. [Translation]

Let us listen now to Commodore A. B. Fraser-Harris, who said the following in a telegram he sent to the Canadian Press, probably to Mr. David Macintosh, of whom I should like to speak later:

Heard from abroad the traditionalist uproar against service unification. At a time when enlightened people throughout the world are learning at last that the pigment of human skin is not a mark of quality, local concern over the colour of a uniform or the title of a man appears singularly unimpressive.

And please listen to this:

Let us always be willing to learn from history and be strengthened by tradition but let us never forget that history is made by the actions of men

April 19, 1967

National Defence Act Amendment and that men create tradition and pride of title not vice versa.

Unification of the three services is undoubtedly sound and timely. Let interservice jealousy, personal rivalry and the extravagances of triplication give way to a single, effective and streamlined service in which Canadians can build future history and new tradition in the service of Canada, whether by land, sea, air or space.

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PC

Walter Gilbert Dinsdale

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Dinsdale:

Would the hon. member permit a question? It seems to me that the hon. member is talking about integration and not unification. If he talks of unification how can he bring the sea, land, air and space together.

tTranslation]

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Rémi Paul

Mr. Prud'homme:

I very seldom rise to speak in the house and hon. members opposite have told me so. With your permission, I shall come back to this whole problem. As far as I am concerned, it is part of the same operation.

Those statements, Mr. Chairman, are those of retired senior officers. They know very well what they are talking about and they definitely support unification. Their number increases constantly.

As for members of the opposition, at a certain time, and even today, I count seven of them-which shows the extraordinary opposition they have raised against this matter which, according to them, will destroy our traditions-I count one, two, three, four, five and even nine of them in the house. Monday night last, April 3, there were only five. That is no doubt an indication of their conviction.

Wing Commander Yellowlees certainly put his finger on it when he said, and I quote the Calgary-Herald of December 10, 1966:

For months now Canadians have been watching military traditionalists arguing against unification. The dispute unfortunately, has been shamefully distorted by emotion, blatant politics and jowlshaking demagoguery.

This is written by a man called Yellowlees -not Lee.

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PC

Gordon Minto Churchill

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Churchill:

Lee's name comes into

everything.

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Rémi Paul

Mr. Prud'homme:

That is the name I have heard many times since this debate started.

[DOT] (4:30 p.m.)

However, I cannot understand those relentless attacks against a man by the name of Lee.

I have heard it said of Mr. David McIntosh of the Canadian Press that he is biased, superficial, and does not report objectively to the Canadian population. He may be biased yet many editorials are written on his reports, columns are based on them and cartoons are drawn. I do not wish it to be thought that when I speak I reflect the words of Mr. Lee, just as I do not think when the hon. member for Athabasca speaks he reflects the hidden words of Mr. McIntosh. I do not care to behave in that way. I shall now continue:

Modern-and future-military operations call for hard, business-like methods. The scientist, the engineer and the logistics expert will be allimportant.

That might have concerned the hon. member for Brandon-

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An hon. Member:

Brandon-Souris.

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Rémi Paul

Mr. Prud'homme:

Brandon has a nice

sound. I went there every week end for two summers.

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PC
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Rémi Paul

Mr. Prud'homme:

I continue quoting:

The future demands the utmost in efficiency. Let us listen to Mr. Hellyer.

Now, Mr. Chairman, let us see briefly who is against this policy. They are of many categories. First, there is the hon. member for Swift Current-Maple Creek (Mr. McIntosh) who still endeavours to define unification but who did not bother to read the record of the committee proceedings in which, on many instances, the minister defined unification as follows:

When I refer to a unified force, I refer to a single integrated service encompassing the naval, land, air and support units necessary to carry out its assigned roles and missions, and operating under unified management.

That is clear enough, I think. And then there is the hon. member for Edmonton-Strathcona (Mr. Nugent). I intended to take up every point of his numerous statements. I am not in the habit, on the other hand, of launching verbal attacks against anybody in an unparliamentary manner. The hon. member for Winnipeg South Centre (Mr. Churchill) must have noted that I have followed his remarks very closely. I have listened to his many interventions which are always made

April 19, 1967

courteously. 1 obviously disagree with the hon. member, but I must admit that he expresses his views in an acceptable and reasonable manner, at least in this house.

His participation in this debate is not to be compared with that of the member for Ed-monton-Strathcona who is constantly using insulting language and always suspecting conspiracies everywhere, behind the curtains, in the office of the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Hellyer) and in the Liberal caucus.

I would rather not mention the hon. member's remarks, but I say to this house that whether or not we are in favour of the unification and integration of our armed forces, we ought never utter such words. That was unfortunate, and if I were allowed to do so, I would apologize for him before the house for the remarks he made here.

Next, there is the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Maclnnis). All hon. members know him.

He is a jumping member, always very devoted to his constituency, I would agree; but when it comes to these large and important questions I think he is completely out of order. I am sorry he is not here; I am sure we could have a good debate between us. Perhaps we shall have it at another time.

But for some reason, which is beyond my understanding, the member for Cape Breton South replaced the hon. member for Vegreville (Mr. Fane) during some of the committee meetings.

The major contribution of the hon. member of Cape Breton South during the discussion was a personal and malicious attack against the minister. I took out several other epithets, because I want to concentrate on what I said earlier about the hon. member for Edmon-ton-Strathcona. Mr. Chairman, I pass over three lines of the text which I had prepared and over all the epithets which I could have used to qualify, not the member for Cape Breton South personally, but his statements. So, he said these things about the hon. minister, and above all, he offered the fallacious idea that unification would lead to conscription.

Moreover, our hon. friend, the member for Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot (Mr. Ricard) said the same things last night. He also saw the dark cloud of conscription looming on the horizon.

National Defence Act Amendment He knows that his words may cause the people to follow him, the nation or the state call it what you will; I do not like semantics as much as that. He will try to arouse the feelings of the French speaking population which seems to be afraid of conscription. I think the hon. members for Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot and for Cape Breton South get on well together. They will probably be conscripted, but certainly not in the army.

Now, I shall talk about the contribution made by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Diefenbaker) who, instead of dealing with Bill No. C-243, made a violent diatribe against the new Minister of Justice (Mr. Trudeau) who, it seems, had written some articles in a magazine called Cite Libre. Therefore, I made a few inquiries. I remember when I was a student, regularly reading Cite Libre as all the University students did in the province of Quebec.

I particularly remembered that the new Minister of Justice was even then an impartial observer, and that he had not merely talked about Liberal members and the Liberal party.

In an article I will be allowed to quote-I will do exactly as he did-written by Pierre Elliott Trudeau in Cite Libre on April 16, 1960, here is what the author said of the then prime minister, Mr. Diefenbaker now Leader of the Opposition:

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DIEFENBAKER UP IN A BALLOON


-Mr. Diefenbaker could have chosen-without being blamed for it-to govern quietly during the years required to learn the trade of statesman. If he had proceeded thus, by slow and thoughtful maturation, the Conservative leader might have eventually given his party a truly historic dimension. Whereas now, that party is in way of becoming the usual mixture of loud-mouths and adventurers, a collection of lawyers at so much per mile and contractors at so much per square foot, in short, the traditional party of Canadian politicians. In fact, Mr. Diefenbaker has chosen to strain his talent. Elected by the greatest majority since confederation, this leader could hardly bear to think that some traces of the Liberal legend could subsist. He seemed determined to overshadow the very shadows filling our current political history. First, there was Mr. Pearson, Nobel prize, highly respected in every chancery throughout the world and leader of the opposition.


PC

William Heward Grafftey

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Graffiey:

That is because Mr. Trudeau was a socialist at that time.

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Rémi Paul

Mr. Prud'homme:

Mr. Diefenbaker had to rush to overshadow him by rising as a giant on the international scene.

April 19, 1967

National Defence Act Amendment

You remember Mr. Chairman, his dream, his vision of a great commonwealth-

To go on:

Unfortunately, his balloon sprung a leak over Asia, notably in Pakistan where misery, riots and anti-parliamentary governments showed him a thing or two on the hazards of a common policy-

But there was also Mr. Howe, this satyr of trade and finance who had left his indelible imprint on the direction of our economy.

Mr. Diefenbaker decided that any trace of that man had to disappear, and he hurriedly announced a drastic 15 per cent reorientation of our international trade. In terms of political economy, it was very odd; but Great Britain made as though it played the game by proposing a free-trade system between our two countries.

[DOT] (4:40 p.m.)

There was also Mr. St. Laurent, one of the main architects of NATO and, who, in another field, was responsible for the repatriation of part of the Canadian constitution by amendment No. 2 of 1949. To outdo as fast as possible the achievements of the former liberal leader on strategic matters, Mr. Diefenbaker hurriedly led us into certain commitments towards NORAD with such an ill-considered zeal that our country finds itself in a state of military dependence which brings it back 100 years. And now, in the constitutional field, Mr. Diefenbaker announces that he will repatriate-

I spare you the rest, Mr. Chairman, but I wind up Mr. Trudeau's article, and I have many others anyway. Therefore I quote:

In all those instances, and in many others, those were generous measures but-one must regret it- they remained for the most part, just good intentions. They were balloons filled with hot air and pushed by the wind which invariably crashed with their operator before going too far.

Mr. Diefenbaker's good intentions have failed so often that we are justified to find in them the very nature of his style-

And he has not changed, as you will note.

-now, as Buffon said, the style is the man himself. Thinking that inspiration does for reflection, he lacks the patience or the modesty to hurry slowly, he does not find it necessary to gather around him men able to establish the Canadian policy on deeprooted reason.

I will spare the house this quotation and go on.

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LIB

Joseph Patrick Tobin Asselin

Liberal

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Asselin, Rich-mond-Wolfe):

Will the hon. member allow the hon. member for Rosthern to ask him a question?

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April 19, 1967