April 3, 1967

LIB

Robert Knight Andras

Liberal

Mr. Andras:

I am attempting to paraphrase it, Mr. Chairman, and to use quotations from the deliberations of the committee in establishing the contrast between the evidence given by the various witnesses.

The Secretary of State pointed out that air portable forces stationed in Canada are already committed to the defence of NATO's northern flank in Norway. Since he spoke, another mobile force in Canada has been committed to the NATO southern flank in time of war. It appears clear from all the evidence, but is nowhere officially stated, that the Canadian intention is to allow the R.C.A.F. nuclear attack force to run down until it passes out of existence in the 70's, but to replace it as a contribution to NATO with mobile ground forces carried by new transport aircraft supported by the new CF-5 ground attack naval plane, and backed by naval transport. This would be a unified force committed to NATO. It would also be the peace keeping or peace restoring force able to operate under UN command.

As several witnesses made clear, the double commitment of this force rests on the calculated gamble that Canada will not be asked to undertake peace keeping missions at the same time as it is called upon by NATO for

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Proceedings on Adjournment Motion action in Europe. The argument appears to be that if a major war breaks out in Europe, no one will worry about keeping the peace elsewhere; second, that as major war is unlikely as long as NATO keeps up its guard, Canadian forces may as well be usefully employed on peace missions.

There is thus no clear line to be drawn between commitment to NATO and peacekeeping. The roles overlap, and the assumption of peace keeping responsibility does not necessarily involve withdrawing from NATO, or even a significant weakening of Canada's military contribution. The commitment argument, therefore, is not decisive, or even very enlightening, in resolving the dispute over unification.

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PC

Michael Starr (Official Opposition House Leader; Progressive Conservative Party House Leader)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Starr:

You have lost your authority, Mr. Chairman.

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LIB

Herman Maxwell Batten (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

I will have to ask the hon. member to co-operate with the Chair and, in the time which remains to him, to proceed with his own remarks on clause 2.

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LIB

Robert Knight Andras

Liberal

Mr. Andras:

Mr. Chairman, I wanted to establish that one of the important factors in the deliberations of the defence committee or, for that matter, in any other committee of the house is a dependence upon the formation of public opinion by objective, hard working reporting in depth. I think the article from which I have been quoting reflects these qualities. Since I am prevented from quoting it completely I commend it to every member of this house, particularly to those who did not have the opportunity to sit on the defence committee. It is an admirable condensation and an excellent summary of the issue before us.

I believe the press has a responsibility to report fully and objectively. It is possible that the debate upon which we are now engaged will be prolonged and impassioned, and in order that the public may judge the issue on its merits I hope the standard of reporting matches that from which I have just quoted. If so, it will have done a great service to the public. This article contains, in my opinion, a very rational approach to the subject before us. It weighs the issues rather than the personalities and I believe we in the house for the balance of this debate might well adopt the objective thinking embodied in this article by Mr. Westell.

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?

Some hon. Members:

Ten o'clock.

Progress reported.

DEBATES April 3, 1967

[DOT] (10:00 p.m.)

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PROCEEDINGS ON ADJOURNMENT MOTION


A motion to adjourn the house under provisional standing order 39A deemed to have been moved.


TRANSPORT-REQUEST FOR RESTORATION OF SERVICE ON KETTLE VALLEY RAILROAD

NDP

Herbert Wilfred Herridge

New Democratic Party

Mr. H. W. Herridge (Kootenay West):

Mr. Speaker, on March 17 last, as recorded at page 14117 of Hansard, I asked the following question of the Minister of Transport (Mr. Pickersgill):

Mr. Speaker, I wish to transport a question to the Minister of Transport which is of national significance .. . Has the minister received a resolution approved by the annual meeting of the Kootenay-Boundary Chambers of Commerce calling for the restoration of passenger service on the Kettle Valley railway from Vancouver to Medicine Hat? If so, what consideration has been given to these representations which are supported by 150,000 people of all parties in British Columbia?

Whereupon Mr. Speaker said:

This question of national significance should be placed on the order paper.

I fully understand that Mr. Speaker could not be expected to appreciate fully that this matter was of urgent and great concern to these 150,000 people in southeastern British Columbia. It has been of great concern to many organizations and the people I have mentioned for over five years because of the possibility of loss of this service from 1962 on, -and in that connection I hope I keep in line with the rules, even though I wish to quote from a press release by a man known as H. W. Herridge, parliamentary leader of the New Democratic Party and member for Kootenay West. This is the press release:

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THE ABANDONMENT OF RAILWAY SERVICES MUST STOP


The government of Canada gave the Canadian Pacific Railway millions of acres of land and billions of dollars worth of natural resources in exchange for the building of a railroad. It seems that the C.P.R. has now forgotten all about these fabulous grants it received for providing services to the public. The C.P.R. continues to enjoy and profit from full possession of land and resources granted long ago but insists that all present services must be directly related to present profits derived from these services. Hardly a week goes by without the C.P.R. doing its best to fire an agent, discontinue passenger service or abandon a branch line. Will this practice be carried on until the C.P.R. tries to abandon the transcontinental railway line while remaining in full possession of the right of way? April 3, 1967



The C.P.R.'s current proposal to abandon passenger service on the Kettle Valley Railway will be vehemently opposed. It is bad enough already that the C.P.R., which is the majority stockholder In the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company, should operate the Kettle Valley line basically for the convenience of its subsidiary. It will be far worse if the interests of the people of the Kootenays be ignored entirely. Should railway passenger service be abandoned, people will no longer be able to reach several areas. Alternative modes of passenger transportation just do not exist. The Board of Transport Commissioners should refuse to authorize any further removal of agents, curtailment of services or abandonment of branch lines until a complete and co-ordinated national transportation policy has been worked out. This, and this alone, can ensure efficiency for the railways, justice for their workers, convenience for our people, and progress for our communities. I might say that later on all the municipalities between Lethbridge and Penticton protested the abandonment of this passenger service, all the chambers of commerce, all the unions in the area, the Canadian Legion branches, women's institutes, in fact everybody who could be mobilized to organize the protest before the Board of Transport Commissioners when it held hearings. Now, Mr. Speaker, quite recently this matter arose again as the result of my bringing the question to the attention of the Minister of Transort during the debate on the transportation bill, and I received a letter from Mr. Guy Constable, of Creston, a very prominent Liberal in Kootenay East, who thoroughly endorsed my efforts. At the KootenayBoundary Chambers of Commerce meeting on March 10 he presented the following resolution: Whereas passenger train service on what is known as Crowsnest-Kettle Valley Railway was discontinued in 1964 by reason of the ruling of the Board of Transport Commissioners for Canada under section 314(1) of the Railway Act, It having been represented by the Canadian Pacific Railway that the train service was uneconomic, and Whereas under Bill No. C-231 passed by parliament January 24th 1967 being legislation to define and implement a national transportation policy for Canada and to amend the Railway Act it is declared in clause No. 1 that an economic and efficient transportation service is essential to the well-being and growth of Canada, and Whereas by the discontinuance of passenger train service as aforementioned 150,000 people in southeastern British Columbia are deprived of service over this railway which runs from Vancouver to Medicine Hat, and alternative means of transportation are inadequate and unreliable and hazardous, especially during the winter months, and Whereas the railway company has failed to develop and promote passenger train service, has been subsidized by grants of varying nature and by accounting methods separating freight and passenger receipts has represented to the Board of Proceedings on Adjournment Motion Transport Commissioners that passenger service is operated at a loss. Now therefore be it resolved that representations be made to the Minister of Transport requiring the Canadian Pacific Railway to re-establish daily passenger train service between Vancouver and Medicine Hat via Crowsnest-Kettle Valley Railway with day coach and cafe sleeper car service, or in the alternative that the Canadian National Railways be granted running rights over this rail route. This was the subject of a very interesting discussion at the annual meeting of the Kootenay-Boundary Chambers of Commerce. Later on I find the following in the Trail Times of March 10 ,1967: Unanimous approval was given Monday to a resolution calling for restoration of the Dayliner service from Vancouver to Medicine Hat, Alta. The resolution was the first approved at the annual meeting of Kootenay-Boundary Chambers of Commerce. I am quoting briefly from this newspaper report. Speaking to the motion, Mr. Constable said he had been in contact with Kootenay West M.P. Bert Herridge who had encouraged reinstatement of the service. Mr. Herridge quoted the Minister of Transport as saying, "It is a very interesting suggestion and well worth consideration by the organizations concerned." I could go on at great length about this, but I do urge the minister to give consideration to the wishes of the people in this area, and to a reconsideration of the Board of Transport Commissioners ruling which denied passenger service since 1964, so that we will be able to enjoy the passenger service which the people in this area are looking forward to in the future.


LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill (Minister of Transport)

Liberal

Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Minister of Transport):

Mr. Speaker, in replying on this subject I regret that I have to substitute for my parliamentary secretary, because this subject is one which would be a little closer to him geographically than it is to me. I do not regret, however, that I do not have the despotic powers which I am sure the hon. member really does not believe I have, but which he suggests I might have-

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NDP

Herbert Wilfred Herridge

New Democratic Party

Mr. Herridge:

Does the cabinet not have the power?

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LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill (Minister of Transport)

Liberal

Mr. Pickersgill:

-to compel the Canadian Pacific Railway or even the Canadian National Railways to institute a passenger service. I think the hon. gentleman has used this forum, as is very proper, to voice a grievance of his constituents. I will be glad to draw a

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Proceedings on Adjournment Motion copy of Hansard with these interesting newspaper quotations from several other important sources as well as himself to the attention of the Canadian Pacific Railway. I will also draw them to the attention of the Board of Transport Commissioners and in both cases suggest that they give them the kind of serious consideration the hon. gentleman requests.

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IMMIGRATION-REPORTED DISCRIMINATION IN ADMISSION OF IMMIGRANTS FROM POLAND

LIB

Ralph Bronson Cowan

Liberal

Mr. Ralph Cowan (York-Humber):

Mr. Speaker, the other day I rose to ask a question of the Minister of Manpower and Immigration (Mr. Marchand) regarding a Polish applicant who wishes to remain in Canada, having arrived here on a visitor's visa. At that time Mr. Speaker ruled that the question should be discussed at another time. I presume he meant on the adjournment debate as it is called. The adjournment debate allows but seven minutes discussion on the part of the person asking the question and three minutes of reply on behalf of the cabinet.

[DOT] (10:10 p.m.)

I am raising this question in respect of an individual by the name of Joseph Gruszka. I knew that if I were to ask a member of the cabinet to explain the phrase "non-discriminatory selection policy" which appears in the white paper on Canadian immigration policy 1966 at page 38 no one would be able to explain the three words "non-discriminatory selection policy" since "non-discriminatory" cancels out "selection" and "selection" cancels out "non-discriminatory. :So a policy of non-discriminatory selection when boiled down means no policy at all. I do not mind there being an immigration policy, for this country, but I do object to people referring to it in praiseworthy terms when it does not justify the adjectives applied to it. We have discrimination in this proposed immigration policy just as we had in the past. In view of that fact, it is beyond my comprehension why we should be given a white paper that says there is no discrimination.

We in this country have been wringing our hands in sorrow because of the statement we have a brain drain to other countries throughout the world. I have said on more than one occasion I do not believe the brain drain is operating against Canada, because we are attracting more brains to Canada than are leaving because of the attractions of other *countries.

DEBATES April 3, 1967

In the case of Joseph Gruszka we are picking the brains of Poland and evidently telling Poland that having picked its brains we do not want the children of the sixth member of the family although we have accepted five members of that family already. Let me advise the house that there is a family by the name of Kawa living right across the street from me in the city of Toronto. There are five members of this family, two brothers and three sisters. Three of them are Canadian citizens, the other two not having lived in Canada long enough to qualify for Canadian citizenship. I understand they intend to apply the moment they have met residence requirements.

A sixth member of the Kawa family remained in Poland. Unfortunately he passed away in Poland, leaving a married daughter, the wife of Joseph Gruszka. He came to Canada last fall to visit his five uncles and aunts, whom we gladly accepted into this country. We show our non-discriminatory selection process by selecting these five members of the Kawa family to live in this country but when the son-in-law of the sixth member of that family, the man who died in Poland, endeavours to join his five uncles and aunts, he is told to get out of the country, and get out fast.

Not only was Mr. Gruszka instructed by the immigration office in Toronto to leave Canada, but the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration (Mr. Marchand) wrote a letter dated February 28 stating that Mr. Gruszka does not meet our requirements. It is very odd to me that five members of the Kawa family, now living in Toronto, met the immigration requirements, yet this sixth member is told that he cannot meet the requirements. We certainly picked the brains of Poland to the benefit of Canada in this regard and I hope we will stop wringing our hands about the unfair treatment we are receiving as a result of people from Canada emigrating to other countries. We are going out of our way to encourage the best people from other lands to come to Canada. Why do we say to the children of the sixth member of this Kawa family that they are not fit to be with us?

The recent white paper on immigration was flashed before the Liberal party by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, and we were supposed to cheer and support it in every way. Apparently these white papers come down from heaven. This white paper includes several references to restrictions, selections, and non-discrimination. However, in

April 3, 1967 COMMONS

the letter dated February 28 from the minister to myself he states in the first page:

If nothing were done, the whole process of preselection of suitable and desirable immigrants would be disrupted.

How can we have pre-selection with nondiscrimination as stated at page 38 of the white paper on immigration, which I have in my hand? Rather than ordering these people out of the country and stating that we have no discrimination, let us be fair and say that if the five uncles and aunts are acceptable, the children of the sixth member of the family are equally acceptable. I outlined in another place the kind of people who live on the street where I live. I have a vice president of an insurance company living alongside of me. We also have living on our street the general manager and vice president of a Canadian branch of an American concern. Next to him lives the owner of one of the biggest tea houses in Canada. Next to him lives a Canadian who owns two or three hotels and next to him lives the widow of the president of one of the great express companies of Canada, and next door lives a doctor. Right across the road from us live these Kawa immigrants.

Does that look as though Mr. Kawa could not look after his nephew, aged 28, who is over here; because if he can afford to move into the territory I have just named, he must be doing all right in this country of his adoption. This white paper talks about the fine people that we are bringing into Canada.

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LIB

Herman Maxwell Batten (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. I must advise the hon. member for York-Humber (Mr. Cowan) that the time allotted to him has expired.

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LIB

John Carr Munro (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Manpower and Immigration)

Liberal

Mr. J. C. Munro (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Manpower and Immigration):

Mr. Speaker, of course when the white paper claims that these non-discriminatory selection criteria are used it is in effect stating that the selection criteria being used will be the same with respect to proposed immigrants from all countries. There have been selection criteria based on part 31 of the regulations which have favoured one country over another in bringing immigrants into this country, as the hon. member well knows. It is the hope under the white paper that this type of discrimination in the application of selection criteria will be removed; that is why the term "non-discriminatory selection criteria" is used in the white paper.

Proceedings on Adjournment Motion

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LIB

Ralph Bronson Cowan

Liberal

Mr. Cowan:

The term is contradictory.

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April 3, 1967