October 28, 1966

NATIONAL DEFENCE

TABLING OF DRAFT AND ACTUAL PRESENTATIONS BY ADMIRAL LANDYMORE

LIB

Paul Theodore Hellyer (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Hon. Paul Hellyer (Minister of National Defence):

Mr. Speaker, I am tabling two copies of the text of a draft prepared by Admiral Landymore for presentation last spring to the special committee on defence, together with the actual presentation, the differences between the two texts being underlined.

Topic:   NATIONAL DEFENCE
Subtopic:   TABLING OF DRAFT AND ACTUAL PRESENTATIONS BY ADMIRAL LANDYMORE
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PC

Gordon Minto Churchill

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Churchill:

Is there nothing cut out of

it? This is a full retreat.

Topic:   NATIONAL DEFENCE
Subtopic:   TABLING OF DRAFT AND ACTUAL PRESENTATIONS BY ADMIRAL LANDYMORE
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NATURAL GAS

TABLING OF DOCUMENTS RESPECTING PIPE LINE THROUGH U.S.

LIB

Jean-Luc Pepin (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources)

Liberal

Hon. Jean-Luc Pepin (Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources):

Mr. Speaker, in accordance with the statement made by the Prime Minister on October 7, 1966, I am now tabling copies of the formal agreement between myself as Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources representing the government of Canada, and Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Ltd., embodying specific undertakings made by the company relating to its application for a certificate of public convenience and necessity and licences for the exportation and importation of gas in connection with the great lakes project.

I am also tabling a letter dated September 22, 1966, addressed to me by Trans-

Canada Pipe Lines, containing the company's representations and the undertakings upon which the agreement is based.

Hon. members will recall that in August the National Energy Board reported to the governor in council upon Trans-Canada's application, indicating that it was prepared to issue a certificate and licences, and drawing attention to certain issues of public policy extending beyond its field of responsibility. On August 25 the Prime Minister stated that the government had not approved the issuance of these authorizations by the board, for

the basic reason that once the proposed pipe line system through the United States had been built it would almost inevitably become the main line, and that this would not be in accord with either the spirit of the policy laid down by parliament in the act incorporating Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Ltd. or in the national interest.

Following this announcement Trans-Canada made the representations and the undertakings set forth in the letter of September 22 which I have tabled. The undertakings were as follows:

[DOT] (11:10 a.m.)

(1) Trans-Canada guarantees that more than 50 per cent of the volume of gas required to supply eastern Canada will be transported through its main line traversing northern Ontario;

(2) Trans-Canada also agrees to accept as a target that by the end of 1976 that figure would be raised to 60 per cent, and further agrees that its long range objective should be to transport 65 per cent of the volumes for eastern Canada through the northern Ontario facilities;

(3) To carry out this undertaking, Trans-Canada would commence looping the northern Ontario line by 1970 and would complete this looping in stages thereafter in accordance with the development of the Canadian market;

(4) Trans-Canada offered to deposit the shares representing its 50 per cent ownership in the Great Lakes Gas Transmission Company with a trustee under terms and conditions acceptable to the government, to ensure that the company could never dispose of its interest in great lakes without the prior approval of the government of Canada.

In addition, Trans-Canada informed the government that American Natural Gas Company, its partner in the Great Lakes Gas Transmission Company, guaranteed the purchase from this jointly owned company of an additional 100 million cubic feet of Canadian gas per day for a period of 25 years, commencing with 50 million cubic feet per day in 1969 and increasing to 100 million cubic feet per day in 1970. The company also referred to other good prospects it had for selling gas in the export markets.

October 28, 1966

Natural Gas

The National Energy Board was asked to comment upon these undertakings and representations, having regard to the reasons for the government's decision as expressed on August 25. The board, in its reply, was of the opinion that the undertakings by Trans-Canada would remove the possibility that the great lakes line might become in effect the main line of Trans-Canada and should put at rest the question whether Trans-Canada's participation in the great lakes project is consistent with the special act of parliament by which Trans-Canada was incorporated.

In summary, the board stated that in its view-

-the undertakings given and representations tnade by Trans-Canada are an adequate and acceptable response to the reasons given in the government statement of August 25 for not approving the certificate and licences sought by the company.

On October 4 the Prime Minister announced that having regard to the advice of the board already referred to, the government had approved the issuance of a certificate of public convenience and necessity and export and import licences to Trans-Canada as recommended by the board, subject to the undertakings being incorporated in an agreement between Trans-Canada and the Minister of Energy, Mines and Resources acceptable to the minister.

The agreement I have tabled incorporates the aforesaid undertakings in such a form as to bind Trans-Canada to always maintain in Canada the main line for the supply of western Canadian gas to eastern Canada. These undertakings will be under the continuous surveillance of the National Energy Board and would be taken into consideration at the time of any future applications of Trans-Canada. There is also a clause stating that Trans-Canada will be liable to the amount of at least $1 million for each breach of the agreement. This does not imply, of course, any lack of faith in the desire or capacity of Trans-Canada to honour the agreement.

I would like to make it clear that this decision was taken solely on the undertakings given by Trans-Canada and not on the representations as to future exports, however attractive they may be. The house is also well aware that the National Energy Board Act provides that only gas which has been declared by the board surplus to the reasonably foreseeable requirements of Canada can be exported. No applications have been received covering these additional exports, and while the government has every confidence in the

future potential of our gas reserves, until such time as proper applications are filed and processed there cannot be any implied commitment in respect of future exports.

I believe that the great lakes project as now contemplated will provide growth markets for western Canadian gas and assist industrial development in eastern Canada. It will provide additional security for eastern Canadian consumers by having two lines by which western Canadian gas could be transmitted to them, and will also provide delivery by the shorter great lakes route to industrial markets and storage fields in southwestern Ontario.

May I express the hope that hon. members and the public will agree with us that the government was motivated in its decision by its desire to keep the line through northern Ontario as the main link between western Canadian reserves and eastern Canada, while providing for the maximum utilization of Canadian gas in Canada and in the export market, and the incentive for continuous development of our gas reserves.

Topic:   NATURAL GAS
Subtopic:   TABLING OF DOCUMENTS RESPECTING PIPE LINE THROUGH U.S.
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PC

John George Diefenbaker (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):

Mr. Speaker, the minister has made a very lengthy statement in respect of a decision that is of transcendant importance to this nation. There are two sides to this question. One is the marketing of our gas and the other is the assurance that Canada shall not place itself in a position where its major production will be available to the United States and ultimately denied to Canada.

The minister's statement provides one more kaleidoscopic example of the way this government acts. It received recommendations from the National Energy Board which was set up for the purpose of determining what is best, not for one part of Canada but for all of Canada. The recommendations of that board did not satisfy the government, so it refused to follow these recommendations. Representations were made and undertakings given by Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Limited, but the government again followed its accustomed course of turning a somersault.

This is the most amazing government in all history. In an international competition in the field of gymnastics this government would win without difficulty. It says one thing today and does the opposite tomorrow.

Are Canada's interests being protected? We find today that continentalism has become the keystone of this government's policy. Continentalism was preached in the days of

October 28, 1966

Macdonald. He stood against it and assured us that Canada would be an independent nation. There are interests in this country which believe our resources should be shared with other nations. We believe that the first consideration in respect of our resources should be a Canadian consideration for Canada's welfare.

The government has adopted the same policy in respect to our water resources. The Prime Minister announced that we were going to make water available to the United States; he made that suggestion during the last election campaign.

Topic:   NATURAL GAS
Subtopic:   TABLING OF DOCUMENTS RESPECTING PIPE LINE THROUGH U.S.
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?

Some hon. Members:

Order.

Topic:   NATURAL GAS
Subtopic:   TABLING OF DOCUMENTS RESPECTING PIPE LINE THROUGH U.S.
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PC

John George Diefenbaker (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

This subject is part and parcel of the whole picture. Let me point out that the Prime Minister said our water resources should be made available to the United States, and that is the kind of policy that is inherent in what this government-

[DOT] (11:20 a.m.)

Topic:   NATURAL GAS
Subtopic:   TABLING OF DOCUMENTS RESPECTING PIPE LINE THROUGH U.S.
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LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill (Minister of Transport)

Liberal

Mr. Pickersgill:

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

Topic:   NATURAL GAS
Subtopic:   TABLING OF DOCUMENTS RESPECTING PIPE LINE THROUGH U.S.
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PC

John George Diefenbaker (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

I have the floor.

Topic:   NATURAL GAS
Subtopic:   TABLING OF DOCUMENTS RESPECTING PIPE LINE THROUGH U.S.
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LIB

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

The minister rises on a point of order.

Topic:   NATURAL GAS
Subtopic:   TABLING OF DOCUMENTS RESPECTING PIPE LINE THROUGH U.S.
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LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill (Minister of Transport)

Liberal

Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Minister of Transport):

My point of order is this; that the statement made by my colleague had to do exclusively with Trans-Canada Pipe Lines. It had nothing whatever to do with water policy. The injection of comments on totally irrelevant matters is becoming a habit and I suggest a bad habit with the right hon. gentleman, which should cease. He should obey the rules as all the rest of us obey them.

Topic:   NATURAL GAS
Subtopic:   TABLING OF DOCUMENTS RESPECTING PIPE LINE THROUGH U.S.
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PC

John George Diefenbaker (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

If irrelevance were ever taken away from the remarks of the hon. member he would have nothing on which to stand. I find these remarks an example of that. I can understand how exacerbated the sensibilities of the hon. member are because I think he agrees with the stand I am taking, though the rest of his cabinet does not. This is the attitude that is governing this administration today. We have it in connection with the automobile agreement. We have it all along the line.

Topic:   NATURAL GAS
Subtopic:   TABLING OF DOCUMENTS RESPECTING PIPE LINE THROUGH U.S.
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LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill (Minister of Transport)

Liberal

Mr. Pickersgill:

Mr. Speaker, I raised a serious point of order, and I hope the Chair will rule on it.

Natural Gas

Topic:   NATURAL GAS
Subtopic:   TABLING OF DOCUMENTS RESPECTING PIPE LINE THROUGH U.S.
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LIB

Lucien Lamoureux (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

I am sure the right hon. Leader of the Opposition knows the rules to the same extent that I and all hon. members know them. He knows what should guide ministerial statements and comments on ministerial statements. The statements themselves should not provoke debate, and the replies should not be in the form of a debate. I suggest to the right hon. gentleman and to all hon. members who take part in this discussion on a ministerial statement that comments be limited to the specific points raised in the ministerial statement.

Topic:   NATURAL GAS
Subtopic:   TABLING OF DOCUMENTS RESPECTING PIPE LINE THROUGH U.S.
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PC

John George Diefenbaker (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

Mr. Speaker, I agree with that, but there are statements that provoke a challenge to this country. They should be answered by this party and on behalf of this party-

Topic:   NATURAL GAS
Subtopic:   TABLING OF DOCUMENTS RESPECTING PIPE LINE THROUGH U.S.
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LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill (Minister of Transport)

Liberal

Mr. Pickersgill:

The right hon. gentleman is getting excited.

Topic:   NATURAL GAS
Subtopic:   TABLING OF DOCUMENTS RESPECTING PIPE LINE THROUGH U.S.
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PC

John George Diefenbaker (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

If this system is to be followed, that every time I rise I am faced with facetious remarks from the hon. member and others, those remarks should be followed by remarks from our side.

Topic:   NATURAL GAS
Subtopic:   TABLING OF DOCUMENTS RESPECTING PIPE LINE THROUGH U.S.
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October 28, 1966