July 13, 1964

L L

William Moore Benidickson (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys)

Liberal Labour

Hon. W. M. Benidickson (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys):

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Port Arthur (Mr. Fisher) has referred to some of the spectacular discoveries minewise that have developed near Timmins in a territory in which he is as interested as I am. His question on the order paper was what part, if any, did the minister and his officials play in the negotiations and discussions between the Ontario department of

Proceedings on Adjournment Motion mines and this private company, and I want to tell him that so tar as I was concerned the answer is none.

The reason is that our department is a department of research. I think that in the early stages we played a very great part through the new opportunities that are available, with helicopters, airplanes and other overhead means of getting the value of the ground underneath, but personally I had nothing to do with this. Afterwards our department plays a very big part in co-operating with industry, following a discovery of this kind.

We have here in Ottawa several of what are almost factories of a fabulous nature that would help them to utilize the ores that they might get out of their ground. The hon. member for Port Arthur has raised this question of co-operation with the provincial government. The staking was entirely through provincial agencies, and the federal minister heard nothing about this. There are some additional properties that have some potential-

Topic:   INDUSTRY-TIMMINS, ONT. FEDERAL PARTICIPATION IN MINING DEVELOPMENTS
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LIB

Lucien Lamoureux (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. I regret to interrupt the minister but his time has expired.

Topic:   INDUSTRY-TIMMINS, ONT. FEDERAL PARTICIPATION IN MINING DEVELOPMENTS
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AIRPORTS

TORONTO

LIB

Maurice John Moreau

Liberal

Mr. M. J. Moreau (York-Scarborough):

Mr. Speaker, I want to speak very briefly tonight about the problem of transportation from Toronto international airport. The hon. member for York-Humber (Mr. Cowan) raised this problem on June 11 and spoke of the monopoly situation that exists. He pointed out that this contract, involving some $1,800,000 of gross revenue, was let without tender for a period of 10 years and was entered into by the previous government in 1960. On June 22 in reply to question No. 1,304 the Minister of Transport set out the justification for this monopoly and, as found on page 4541 of Hansard, the answer reads in part as follows:

They are required to provide modern equipment, to carry public liability insurance, and provide uniformed employees. All of this requires a very heavy capital investment on the part of the company, and to maintain such an investment it is necessary that the company be given exclusive rights to the passenger traffic offerings at the airport. To permit unrestricted competition from taxis would make the whole operation economically unsound. Without granting the company exclusive rights, it would be impossible to provide the type of service required by the travelling public.

I want to ask the minister if those are his words, his conclusions, or if they are the words of some official in his department because I should like to know on just what basis these conclusions were reached. What sort of survey or report resulted in this sort of conclusion and what are the facts behind such a conclusion? Personally I do not accept this answer in view of the size of the business today at Malton airport. It might have been true 10 or 15 years ago but certainly anyone who has spent any time at Toronto international airport, particularly since the new terminal building has been opened, would not accept that answer.

Topic:   AIRPORTS
Subtopic:   TORONTO
Sub-subtopic:   REQUEST FOR EXTENSION OF LIMOUSINE SERVICE
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NDP

Douglas Mason Fisher

New Democratic Party

Mr. Fisher:

We tried to tell the minister in the T.C.A. committee.

Topic:   AIRPORTS
Subtopic:   TORONTO
Sub-subtopic:   REQUEST FOR EXTENSION OF LIMOUSINE SERVICE
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LIB

Maurice John Moreau

Liberal

Mr. Moreau:

If we are to accept this monopoly until the expiry of the contract in 1970,

I want to ask the minister if he will at least treat Scarborough as a separate community outside of the present contract. I say this because the monopoly which was set up to give a service required by the travelling public, to use the words in the answer to the question, does nothing to give service to the 350,000 people who live in the east and north sections of Toronto.

The bus service now available travels down highway 27 and along the Gardiner expressway to the Royal York hotel

Topic:   AIRPORTS
Subtopic:   TORONTO
Sub-subtopic:   REQUEST FOR EXTENSION OF LIMOUSINE SERVICE
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NDP

Douglas Mason Fisher

New Democratic Party

Mr. Fisher:

The good old C.P.R.

Topic:   AIRPORTS
Subtopic:   TORONTO
Sub-subtopic:   REQUEST FOR EXTENSION OF LIMOUSINE SERVICE
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LIB

Maurice John Moreau

Liberal

Mr. Moreau:

-without any intervening stops. The hon. member for York-Humber (Mr. Cowan) has told me about a constituent, Mr. Charles Ring, who lives in Mimico, which is on the route that the bus travels. He is required to travel to the Royal York and then struggle back home on the streetcar. This man is 88 years old. I suggest that what we have here is an exclusive franchise to operate a bus line between Toronto international airport and the Royal York hotel which enjoys the benefit of a captive public who are required to use the vehicles provided by Air Terminal Transport Limited.

I am one of those who live in the east end of Toronto and it costs me some $9.75 to travel to my home by means of this service to the travelling public. If I am to take the limousine service from the Royal York I am still a 40 minute drive away from that hotel which involves a $5.50 or $6 cab fare. On the other hand, I am only a 40 minute drive from the airport if it were possible to travel by highway 401.

I suggest to the minister that he ask Air Terminal Transport Limited to provide a bus service to the east end of Toronto. They could make a pick-up at the Cedarbrae shopping plaza at Markham road and Lawrence avenue, make an intervening stop at Don Mills shopping plaza at Lawrence and Don Mills road and then travel by highway 401 out to the airport. The trip could be made in 40 minutes and I am sure the fare would not have to be any more than $2. I suggest to the minister that, as I said, there are about 350,000 people who need this sort of service. There are 60,000 people who live inside the metropolitan Toronto boundary who are still living east of where I am. There are 60,000 people who live north of Lawrence avenue. I suggest that this is certainly a large enough public to require this kind of service.

Topic:   AIRPORTS
Subtopic:   TORONTO
Sub-subtopic:   REQUEST FOR EXTENSION OF LIMOUSINE SERVICE
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LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill (Minister of Transport)

Liberal

Hon. J. W. Pickersgill (Minister of Transport):

Mr. Speaker, I think I will have to do what I think I have never failed to do when I have been a minister, and that is take responsibility for the answer I gave the other day and not attempt to identify anyone who may have advised me to give that answer. I think that the first thing of which we have to be sure is that there is going to be some form of transportation at the airport, whenever aircraft arrive, for those people who are not residents of Toronto but are coming to Toronto from some other place. They are entitled, as well as those living in Toronto who do not have their own motorcars, to be sure of some form of transportation at the airport.

I confess that I am an old fashioned Liberal and I do not like monopolies. If there were some way of avoiding a monopoly situation, I would be very happy to do it. I have listened to representations both in the house and out of the house. I even had a delegation come to

13, 1964 5433

Proceedings on Adjournment Motion me including two of my colleagues in the cabinet. This suggests to me that these people who are able to get elected in Toronto, and they happen to be mostly supporters of the government, I am happy to say, probably have a fair idea what the people of Toronto are thinking. I asked the head of the company to come to see me this week. I am going to go over some of these difficulties with him. I am very much impressed, particularly by the statement by the hon. member for York-Scar-borough (Mr. Moreau) that there are as many people in the northeastern part of Toronto as there are in the city of Hamilton. It seems to me that they ought to be entitled to service, not superior to that given Hamilton, but equal to it. If there is any way of assuring that the service will be satisfactory to all parts of the area and that it will not be unduly costly, I shall be glad to do everything I can.

I can take no responsibility whatever, and I do a Pontius Pilate act in this matter, for the way in which this contract was renewed in 1960. This was someone else's responsibility, and he can take it. The contract was made and, as has been the custom of governments thus far in this country, it has been honoured even though made by a predecessor and even though we may not entirely agree with it. I hope we will not soon change that custom in this country. It is obvious that since hon. members on both sides of the house who are elected by the people make these suggestions, there must be some ground for some feeling that the service is not satisfactory. I am going to try my best to find out what the difficulty is and to help see it is removed.

Topic:   AIRPORTS
Subtopic:   TORONTO
Sub-subtopic:   REQUEST FOR EXTENSION OF LIMOUSINE SERVICE
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LIB

Lucien Lamoureux (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order; the minister's time has expired.

Motion agreed to and the house adjourned at 11 p.m.

Tuesday, July 14, 1964

Topic:   AIRPORTS
Subtopic:   TORONTO
Sub-subtopic:   REQUEST FOR EXTENSION OF LIMOUSINE SERVICE
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July 13, 1964