May 14, 1964

PC

Eldon Mattison Woolliams

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Woolliams:

How can you say that?

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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LIB

George James McIlraith (Minister of National Revenue; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. Mcllraith:

They cannot be set up until

the independent commissions are created or appointed under the legislation before the house; that is the point of my argument.

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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PC

Eldon Mattison Woolliams

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Woolliams:

Have you seen those

sketches?

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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?

An hon. Member:

Sit down.

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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LIB

George James McIlraith (Minister of National Revenue; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. Mcllraith:

I hope the hon. member will observe some of the courtesies of the house for a moment. Since there are no maps, how can he ask that they be produced? The documents that he does ask to be produced are documents that I have not seen myself, but I am told they are some kind of sketches.

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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PC

Eldon Mattison Woolliams

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Woolliams:

It is a good thing it is hearsay, because your tongue would get thick-

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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LIB

Lucien Lamoureux (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. I regret that I have to interrupt the minister but his time has expired. If the mover of the motion speaks now, he will close the debate.

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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PC

Paul Raymond Martineau

Progressive Conservative

Hon. Paul Martineau (Poniiac-Temisca-mingue):

I have only a few remarks to make at this time. First of all, it has been established by action which we took when we were on the government side, that we stand clearly for independence in redistribution. We were the ones who placed a resolution on the order paper calling for the establishment of an independent commission to deal with this very important matter. If today we ask for the production of these maps, it is because we want to make sure that redistribution is independent and, second, that the judgment that we exercise on this matter as legislators will be a well informed judgment. There is no other purpose for calling for the production of these maps.

Speaking to this motion two weeks ago the Minister of Transport (Mr. Pickersgill) adopted what I would call a most fantastic line of reasoning. First of all he said there existed no maps. These were his words in reference to them, as recorded at page 2775 of Hansard for April 30:

-virtually, mathematical exercises which could not conceivably bear any relationship to the ultimate disposition-

Surely, Mr. Speaker, the representation commissioner who has been appointed by this house has other things to do than engage in activities that, if we are to believe the Minister of Transport, have absolutely no bearing

Electoral Boundaries Maps on the subject with which he is treating. I think that that does not stand up at all.

Those who have seen the so-called exercises-and I am one of those, although I had not seen the maps when I called for their production-

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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?

Some hon. Members:

Oh, oh.

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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?

Mr, Marlineau:

Yes, I am not afraid to say it. I was called in to have a look at them, and I will treat with that particular subject in a few minutes. I have seen these so-called exercises and I am satisfied they can be described in no other word than maps. In any event, Mr. Speaker, the representation commissioner-

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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LIB

John Edward Lloyd

Liberal

Mr. Lloyd:

On a point of order; it has been made abundantly clear to the house that the documents which are being referred to are nothing more than the working papers of an officer of the house-

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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LIB

Lucien Lamoureux (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order please.

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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LIB

John Edward Lloyd

Liberal

Mr. Lloyd:

-and they cannot be described-

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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LIB

Lucien Lamoureux (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order please. The hon. member is making an argument. There is no point of order.

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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PC

Paul Raymond Martineau

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Martineau:

Mr. Speaker, I will move to the second fantastic statement by the Minister of Transport. This is what he said in this house, and I would ask you to listen carefully to his words. In his speech he said:

-an offer was made, through my mouth, by the representation commissioner, to ail parties in the house that they-

-whoever "they" referred to-I believe it was hon. members-

.-could choose a few of their members to look at these maps and have them thoroughly explained-

Since when have we the right as members, all duly elected members, to make distinctions as between members and members? The absurd result that would directly flow from such an action would mean that when the redistribution bill is placed before the house some members of parliament would be in a better position, would be better informed than others, and therefore some of them would be able to make the right judgment and others would not.

As members of this house we are called upon to judge the issue, and the issue is to know whether or not the 20 per cent tolerance is the tolerance that should be accepted as a criterion for the determination of the new constituencies. I submit that in order to be able to make an informed judgment on that tolerance we should not be denied all the evidence and information that it is possible to obtain, and the best information that can be obtained is the production of these maps.

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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LIB

Lucien Lamoureux (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

I declare the motion lost.

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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LIB

Richard Joseph Cashin

Liberal

Mr. Cashin:

Mr. Speaker, I was paired. Had I not been paired, I would have voted against the motion.

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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LIB

Lawrence T. Pennell

Liberal

Mr. Pennell:

I was paired, Mr. Speaker. Had I voted, I would have voted against the motion.

Topic:   MOTIONS FOR PAPERS
Subtopic:   MAPS SHOWING ELECTORAL BOUNDARIES
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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

LIB

Lucien Lamoureux (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

It is my duty, pursuant to provisional standing order 39A, to inform the house that the questions to be raised at ten o'clock this day are as follows: The hon. member for Port Arthur, Quebec-federal participation in provincial study of independence; the hon. member for Joliette-L'Assomption-Montcalm, fraudulent bankruptcies in housing construction;

the hon. member for Chapleau: reduction of tax load.

At six o'clock the house took recess.

Topic:   BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
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May 14, 1964