November 21, 1963

EXTERNAL AFFAIRS

REPORT ON PARIS MEETING OP O.E.C.D.

LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Hon. Paul Martin (Secretary of State for External Affairs):

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister indicated yesterday that on my return from the organization for economic co-operation and development meeting held in Paris on Tuesday and Wednesday I would make a brief statement on the results of this conference, which was presided over by the foreign minister of Norway, Mr. Lange. I wish to table the communique issued at the conclusion of this meeting, and with the permission of the house perhaps it might be printed as an appendix to Hansard of today, as was done in other years.

The organization for economic co-operation and development provides an important bridge between the European and North American parts of the Atlantic community. It is expected shortly to be broadened by the inclusion of Japan when the parliamentary procedures in that country have been completed. These links among such key countries make this organization extremely important in Canada's general foreign relations. The O.E.C.D. provides a forum for consultation among representatives of the principal industrial nations of the west.

The most important feature of this particular meeting was the discussion of assistance by member countries to the less developed nations of the world. I emphasized the importance which the Canadian government attaches to the efforts of the O.E.C.D. to improve the co-ordination of aid. I indicated that the statistics frequently referred to comparing aid programs of Canada and other countries were often misleading and needed to be interpreted with great care. There are problems of definition and content which must be examined critically. Moreover, as the organization has recognized in the past, there are qualitative as well as quantitative factors which must be introduced for a meaningful comparison.

I am happy to report that representatives of other member governments warmly received the details of the increase in our own aid program which were announced in this

house last Thursday. The meeting also considered the trade relations of member countries with the less developed countries and agreed on the importance of approaching the United Nations conference on trade and development with the intention of making a positive contribution to the necessary efforts to expand the trade of these developing countries. The occasion of this O.E.C.D. meeting provided an opportunity for the ministers from the NATO countries to take part in an informal NATO discussion on east-west economic and other relations. This is, of course, a subject under continuing study by the organization, and we had a frank and useful discussion of the significance of recent developments.

In making this statement I have taken note of the questions asked of the Prime Minister by the hon. member for Burnaby-Coquitlam and the right hon. Leader of the Opposition yesterday and the day before. In particular the council considered the role of government credit and government guarantees of private credit in trade with the communist countries. No attempt was made to reach an agreed view, as this was not the object of the discussion. I made it clear that Canada favoured east-west trade in non-strategic goods on a mutually advantageous basis.

Regarding government to government credit, I reported that Canada like most other NATO countries has not extended such credits to any communist country. In connection with the question of credit guarantees, I stated that Canadian policy is generally to follow the criteria established for members of the Berne Union; that is, normally to limit government guarantees of private credit to five years. This policy is maintained with respect to all countries on a non-discriminatory basis, and of course applies to guarantees of private credits for Canadian sales to communist countries.

I may say in conclusion that the reports which I have seen on my return this morning indicating that Canada had taken a position other than that of the government of the United Kingdom are not founded in fact.

Righl Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition): The house will welcome the presence of the genial Secretary of State for External Affairs. We saw him pictured in various poses during his visit to Paris. His look of suspicion has no basis in fact.

Paris Meeting of O.E.C.D.

Naturally, we give our support to the O.E.C.D., and I am very glad to hear that Japan is about to join. We endeavoured, during the days of the Conservative administration, to encourage the adherence of Japan; we gave it our full support.

However, I should like to refer particularly to the credit arrangements which were discussed. According to the various press items there was in fact an endeavour on the part of the United States to bring about an end to all credit or credit guarantees to communist countries.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   REPORT ON PARIS MEETING OP O.E.C.D.
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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. Martin (Essex East):

That is not

accurate.

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PC

John George Diefenbaker (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

I am just mentioning what the press had stated. The minister has said, as I took from his remarks, that we believe there should be a restriction to five years. Personally, on the basis of recent experience, I believe that period will have to be increased. I found a situation outside the communist countries in the Middle East demanding that there must be an increase in the period during which credit is given. I hope consideration will be given by the government to this very important question outside the communist countries. I know that in Israel I found that Canada could considerably extend its trade were it able to give the same kind of extended credit facilities that are available elsewhere. There is one particular, large order for railway supplies, ties and the like. Canada is in the position where credit could be extended for only a few years. One particular country has offered credit running over a period of, I think, 20 years with interest rates lower than those that we in Canada are able to give. In other words, countries are becoming strongly competitive.

I think the government of Canada will have to move forward with the times. We did our part when in office to provide credit, to expand and extend trade, but I feel that what we did will have to be extended in order to meet the stronger and ever increasing competition of other countries for world business.

I should also like to say to the minister that he might clarify the announcement he made just prior to his departure relating to increased assistance to underdeveloped countries. I have examined his statement, and the more that I examine it the more it seems to be an economic conundrum. It is difficult to understand what he meant and what is the amount of the increase. It has been stated in the press that in Paris he spoke of an increase of $170 million in Canada's aid overseas. I am sure he did not say that, but that was in the press. I hope that at the earliest possible date, with the perspicacity and

[Mr. Diefenbaker.)

ability in language that he possesses, he will translate the as yet untranslatable. As one looks at the picture and reads the statement one asks oneself, how much is Canada going to advance additional to that provided in the past. The minister may have been able to make that clear to the O.E.C.D. so they would understand it, but I should like him to make it possible for Canadians to appreciate it as well.

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NDP

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

New Democratic Party

Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquitlam):

Mr. Speaker, I am sure members in all parts of the house welcome back the Secretary of State for External Affairs from his meeting with the O.E.C.D. in Paris. We are glad he has avoided some of the pitfalls which have sometimes enticed members who visit that playful city. Certainly on behalf of the members of this group we welcome any steps which are taken to bring Japan into the O.E.C.D.

I am glad to hear the minister say that a good deal of time was spent on the matter of additional aid to underdeveloped countries. I think one of the great disappointments for those who supported the idea of NATO has been that so little is done under article 2 of the NATO charter. It was hoped that the O.E.C.D. would be the instrument through which the western democracies would use some of their vast resources to assist the underdeveloped countries. It was hoped that the trend might be away from concentration upon military expenditures toward greater investment in the development of these emerging countries. I think most of us are disappointed that these expectations have not been fulfilled.

I am glad the minister clarified the situation for those attending the O.E.C.D. meetings. I still think it requires clarification in Canada. The hon. gentleman announced the other day a $70 million increase in Canada's contribution. If one examines the statement carefully, however, one finds that $50 million of this sum really consists of loans, which means that our cash outlay in terms of outright assistance is small indeed. I think the minister should know that we in this party, and I believe members in all parties in the house, would be prepared to give the government wholehearted support if he and his colleagues were to embark on a bold and imaginative program of aid to underdeveloped countries.

I was glad to hear the hon. gentleman make mention of long term credits. We have no way of knowing exactly what transpired at the meetings, but the press reports indicated that the United States representatives were urging that credit extended to communist countries should be limited to a maximum of five years. It was also reported that the

United Kingdom representatives had opposed this suggestion, and I am glad to learn that Canada joined with Britain in this regard.

It is important for Canada to extend her trade irrespective of whether the countries with which we trade are communist or not. Good trading relations are the basis of good international relations. We think that countries become better friends, and have a better understanding of each other if their trade relations are expanded. I hope the government will continue to oppose any restrictions as to time in connection with these credits, and that it will be prepared to consider advancing long term credit not only to communist countries but to any others which may wish to enter into trade agreements with Canada on this basis.

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SC

Robert Norman Thompson

Social Credit

Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):

I join with the previous speakers in expressing our pleasure at the fact that the Secretary of State for External Affairs is back in our midst again, and that he had a successful meeting with representatives of other member nations of O.E.C.D.

I think it is good that we should realize that the basic intent of the Atlantic community was not merely military in character. I believe as we move forward, away from the circumstances which developed in Europe at the end of the second world war, we should increasingly recognize the importance which is attached to the economic aspect of the work of the north Atlantic community. I am thinking in particular in terms of trade. However, the objectives of the economic policies of the north Atlantic community should run parallel to those objectives with which the military aspect of the alliance was originally concerned, that is to strengthen and protect the nations and their economies forming the alliance.

In my opinion it is an excellent thing that Japan should be moving closer to membership, and no doubt there are other countries which could be included in the same category as Japan. They too should be welcomed as members. It is most important that the underdeveloped nations of the world should be considered. I would have been much more pleased to read reports that the Secretary of State for External Affairs had given leadership in the direction of developing trade with the underdeveloped countries to a far greater extent, on the basis not only of a completely new approach to some of the economic problems involved but also of new policies with regard to aid. As has been suggested, we should be extending greater credit arrangements on a new basis if necessary so as to reach out to those nations which are now emerging and which would like to stand with the free world. There would be no shortage

Paris Meeting of O.E.C.D. of markets in the world if only the people who are today suffering from hunger had the dollars with which to buy the goods we can produce.

In the over-all picture leadership to this end would be an excellent thing. I do emphasize again to the Secretary of State for External Affairs the need of standing with those who are our friends, and doing so in such a way that we can strengthen them having regard to the situation that continues to exist in the world today.

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RA

David Réal Caouette

Ralliement Créditiste

Mr. Real Caouetle (Villeneuve):

Mr. Speaker, we are happy to hear that the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Martin) had a pleasant stay in Paris and that he met with the representatives of various European and North American countries.

Next time the Secretary of State for External Affairs goes to Paris, I hope that he will invite me to accompany him so that I may see for myself what happens with regard to agreement.

The result of that conference which was held in Paris seems to be a greater economic co-operation between Europe and North America, which will contribute to improve considerably our trade relations with various European countries.

I also understand that this conference will result in a larger contribution to the assistance given various underdeveloped countries in the world.

We encourage the Secretary of State for External Affairs, as well as the government, to pursue a policy which will prevent the free countries in the world from being influenced by subversive philosophies. I think that with regard to this matter, the Secretary of State for External Affairs, as well as the government, could show leadership and even set an example to the whole world, and that, while improving our relations with some communist countries.

Some people seem to be shocked at Canada's dealings with certain communist countries. Yet the latter do not hesitate to deal with or to try and influence the western countries, or the free countries, of which we are one. But we should not be afraid to take some action or measures to prevent communism from progressing in the world, as is now the case.

On behalf of our group, I commend the Secretary of State for External Affairs, and I urge him to show the way to a durable peace in this world.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   REPORT ON PARIS MEETING OP O.E.C.D.
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?

Maurice Bourget (Speaker of the Senate)

Mr. Speaker:

Does the house give consent to the printing in Hansard of the O.E.C.D. press release dated November 20, in English

Committees of the House and in French, as requested by the Secretary of State for External Affairs?

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   REPORT ON PARIS MEETING OP O.E.C.D.
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PC

John George Diefenbaker (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

It is a communique.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   REPORT ON PARIS MEETING OP O.E.C.D.
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?

Maurice Bourget (Speaker of the Senate)

Mr. Speaker:

The communique. Agreed?

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   REPORT ON PARIS MEETING OP O.E.C.D.
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?

Some hon. Members:

Agreed.

[Editor's note: For text of document referred to above, see appendix.]

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COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE

PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS

LIB

Maurice Rinfret (Chief Government Whip's assistant; Chief Government Whip's assistant)

Liberal

Mr. Maurice Rinfret (SI. James) moved:

That the names of Messrs. Francis and Rondeau be substituted for those of Messrs. Rideout and Gregoire on the standing committee on privileges and elections.

That the name of Mr. Francis be substituted for that of Mr. Pennell on the special committee on food and drugs.

Topic:   COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
Subtopic:   PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS
Sub-subtopic:   CHANGES IN PERSONNEL
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PC

Gordon Harvey Aiken

Progressive Conservative

Mr. G. H. Aiken (Parry Sound-Muskoka):

Mr. Speaker, this is a shameful motion, in that it seeks to take off the committee on privileges and elections two members who had the courage to give their own opinions objectively. That is what is being done in this particular motion.

Topic:   COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
Subtopic:   PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS
Sub-subtopic:   CHANGES IN PERSONNEL
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?

Maurice Bourget (Speaker of the Senate)

Mr. Speaker:

Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?

Topic:   COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
Subtopic:   PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS
Sub-subtopic:   CHANGES IN PERSONNEL
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LIB

Cyril Lloyd Francis

Liberal

Mr. Lloyd Francis (Carleion):

Mr. Speaker, on this particular motion I wish to say I was a member of both these committees before becoming a delegate of Canada to the commonwealth parliamentary association conference in Malaysia. During the period of my absence from Canada there was an understanding that I would be temporarily replaced on these committees but that on my return I would be permitted the privilege, with the consent of the house, of resuming my seat on the committees in which I am interested and to which I was originally assigned. The intent of this resolution is purely and simply to permit me to resume the positions which I originally had on the committees, and I am sure there is no other implication whatsoever.

Topic:   COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
Subtopic:   PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS
Sub-subtopic:   CHANGES IN PERSONNEL
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PC

Gordon Harvey Aiken

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Aiken:

On the point of privilege, Mr. Speaker-

Topic:   COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
Subtopic:   PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS
Sub-subtopic:   CHANGES IN PERSONNEL
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LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill (Secretary of State of Canada; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Pickersgill:

There is no privilege.

Topic:   COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE
Subtopic:   PRIVILEGES AND ELECTIONS
Sub-subtopic:   CHANGES IN PERSONNEL
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November 21, 1963