November 14, 1963

PRIVILEGE

MRS. KONANTZ STATEMENT ON REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE

LIB

Margaret McTavish Konantz

Liberal

Mrs. Margaret Konanlz (Winnipeg South):

Mr. Speaker, I should like to be permitted to say a few words on a question of privilege raised in my absence from the house by the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Orlikow). Yesterday afternoon I returned from the United Nations in order to come before the house to answer some of the questions which were asked here last Tuesday afternoon. On Tuesday night I sent the Minister of Transport a wire from our Canadian mission in New York, which reads as follows:

Winnipeg Tribune reporter called me at 2.30 p.m. local time today asking me what I had meant in the story of our annual meeting in Winnipeg South at Lois Parkhill November 5, when I said "Mr. Mcllraith showed me the Dixon-Speas report."

I explained that I had made a courtesy call on you while in Ottawa when attending the federal Liberal women's conference. At that time you stated the Dixon-Speas report could not be released and pointed to four volumes on the table behind your desk. The reporter asked me if I had been talking to Ottawa today, to which I said no. He told me of Mr. Orlikow's statement in the house.

Now, there are two points I would like to make. Because of my deep concern over the problem of T.C.A., this summer I went through the overhaul base and visited with the men. On another occasion I met with management. I was shown reports, records and documents, so that when I saw the Dixon-Speas report on the minister's table I well understood this report would probably contain confidential information. At the annual meeting of the Winnipeg South constituency, when reporting on the T.C.A. question I did say, without giving any details, that the Minister of Transport had shown me the Dixon-Speas report. It was unthinking of me to allow any impression that I had seen the report itself.

On reviewing the newspaper stories of our meeting I realized how I must have embarrassed both the Prime Minister and the Minister of Transport. For this reason, on Tuesday night I telephoned the chairman of my advisory committee in Winnipeg to ask him if at any time I had given any suggestion that I had read the Dixon-Speas report. As 28902-5-301J

a result the following wire was sent to the Minister of Transport from the Winnipeg South Liberal association and a copy was sent to me in New York yesterday morning:

Mrs. Konantz did not say at her annual meeting or elsewhere that she had seen and therefore read the Dixon-Speas report but did say that the five volume report was pointed out to her by the minister. From her conversation with him she could well understand why the information contained in it could not be made public because it would then be available to the competitors of T.C.A.

Yesterday morning the Minister of Transport wired me to come to Ottawa. I have now had a chance to read the questions which were raised in the house on Tuesday. I believe I have given frank answers to them all. I have read the statement made by the Minister of Transport to the House of Commons. Needless to say, it is entirely correct.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MRS. KONANTZ STATEMENT ON REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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COMMITTEES OF THE HOUSE

VETERANS AFFAIRS-CONCURRENCE IN SECOND REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE


Mr. James Forgie (Renfrew North) presented the second report of the standing committee on veterans affairs, and moved that the report be concurred in. Motion agreed to.


DEBATES-CONCURRENCE IN FIRST REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE


Mr. H. M. Batten (Humber-St. George's) presented the first report of the standing committee on debates, and moved that the report be concurred in. Motion agreed to.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS

LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Hon. Paul Martin (Secretary of State for External Affairs):

I should like to make an announcement on a subject which I am sure will be of considerable interest to the house and to the Canadian people. I refer to Canada's program of economic assistance for the developing nations of the world. The record demonstrates, I think, that since 1950, when Canada was one of the founding members of the Colombo plan, Canadian governments have regularly reviewed the adequacy of their aid programs and have made provision for increases whenever national circumstances permitted. Last year only was a reduction

Expansion of Economic Assistance made in the level of our assistance as part of a general program to reduce expenditures in every area of government activities.

When the present government took office it became increasingly apparent that because of the changing framework of international assistance a fresh look was required at our international aid effort. The requirements of the developing countries are urgent and growing, and economic assistance for them has become an established policy of all of the advanced nations of the free world which have recognized the need to co-operate in assisting to the best of their ability those countries in the process of economic development.

Accordingly, our Canadian aid effort cannot be viewed in isolation but rather as part of a broad collective effort. We would be failing in our responsibilities both to the developing countries and to other advanced countries with which we are associated, if we did not ensure that Canada played its proper role in this common aid effort.

As an integral part of our foreign policy our Canadian aid programs have, I am convinced, the broad support of the Canadian people. By sharing our resources, skills and experiences we not only benefit others but also help to expand and enrich our own experiences. Our aid programs provide a stimulus to the domestic economy and contribute to a betterment of employment conditions, since the main part of our aid funds is spent in Canada to purchase Canadian goods and services required in the developing countries.

Taking all these factors into account, the Canadian government has now formulated general plans for an expansion of Canada's aid programs beginning in the fiscal year 1964-65.

The main proposed area of expansion would be in special Canadian lending for development purposes. If Canada is to be in a position to provide assistance on terms commensurate with the needs of recipient countries, consistent with the agreed objectives of international bodies of which we are a member, and in line with what other major donors are providing, there should be available for implementing Canada's bilateral assistance programs facilities for lending of the type now carried out by the international development association, involving such features as long maturity periods, liberal grace periods, and little or no interest. It is proposed, therefore, that a lending program of this type should be commenced in the fiscal year 1964-65 with an initial ceiling for commitments of $50 million.

It is the government's intention to ask parliament to make separate provision beginning

in 1964-65 for a food aid program, as already announced by the Minister of Trade and Commerce, and for Canada's contribution to the Indus basin development fund, which was set up in an effort to resolve the difficult dispute between India and Pakistan over the use of the waters of the Indus basin. These are now included in Canada's bilateral grant aid programs, which will be continued in 1964-65 at their present level of about $50 million, but which will in the future be limited to the provision of project assistance, the supply of industrial commodities and the carrying out of technical assistance for the developing countries. The result will be a significant increase in our grant aid.

These improvements in our aid programs would, of course, be additional to Canada's other existing programs of assistance, including our long term financing arrangements under the Export Credits Insurance Act and our contributions to the multilateral programs of the United Nations. Recent references have been made in the house to the increased Canadian contribution to the United Nations special fund and the international development association.

In the current fiscal year it is expected that the over-all level of Canada's expenditures for assistance to less developed countries will be in the neighbourhood of $120 million. It is the government's intention to seek authority to make available an additional $70 million in 1964-65. It is, of course, not possible at this stage to forecast an actual expenditure level for 1964-65, but it is expected that with the new resources available, the level might be in the range of $180 million to $190 million.

The over-all program which I have described will be a flexible one designed to place Canada in a position to make an effective response to changing national and international circumstances. In particular, it will provide:

(1) aid to Colombo plan countries of Asia at a higher level than was provided prior to the reduction in 1962;

(2) a more comprehensive and sizeable Canadian program for the commonwealth countries of the Caribbean. In this connection, it will be remembered that when the Prime Minister of Canada saw the President of the United States he indicated that it was Canada's intention to increase its assistance to the commonwealth countries of the Caribbean with which Canada, of course, has a long and historic association;

(3) a larger and more effective program for Africa, including the French speaking states;

(4) a further contribution to Latin American development, in close co-operation with the

inter-American development bank, through the availability of new and additional lending resources.

I make this announcement at this time in view of the O.E.C.D. ministerial meeting in Paris next Tuesday and Wednesday, at which the subject of aid to developing countries will be discussed.

Topic:   DEBATES-CONCURRENCE IN FIRST REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   ANNOUNCEMENT OF EXPANSION OF ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS
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PC

John George Diefenbaker (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):

It is difficult, Mr. Speaker, to follow the minister in the detail in which he indulged without having before one the actual figures and the computations that he has before him as he speaks. However, in so far as a program is concerned which will raise standards in other parts of the world and will assure technical assistance, in what the minister has stated he represents the viewpoint of the Canadian people.

As a matter of fact, when we came into office we made alterations in the amount of assistance given under the Colombo plan by increasing the amount from $35 million to approximately $50 million. Furthermore, during our period of office we brought into effect assistance for those developing French speaking countries in Africa, a work which was particularly appreciated by those people in view of the dual nature of our country. Mention is made in the announcement of expanding assistance to the Caribbean countries. This is a continuation of a course which we launched in 1959. It is a worthy one, for those nations have much in common with us, and contiguous to us as they are within the commonwealth they have a particular claim upon our consideration.

In so far as the loan plan is concerned, that is something that will have to be examined with care. I believe that Canada, as a member of the commonwealth, should do her part toward encouraging within the commonwealth the establishment of a commonwealth loan plan for the assistance of countries within the commonwealth, because represented within the commonwealth are almost all the races and colours of men. What the minister has said, in effect, is that Canada, as a leading nation desiring peace and the raising of standards throughout the world, accepts her responsibility as nations must today as being their brother's keeper.

In so far as the general purport of what he has said is concerned, there will be widespread approval. The particulars, however, will require examination to the end that in any contribution we make internationally in this regard, first consideration should be given to the commonwealth countries.

Topic:   DEBATES-CONCURRENCE IN FIRST REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   ANNOUNCEMENT OF EXPANSION OF ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS
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NDP

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

New Democratic Party

Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquitlam):

Mr. Speaker, the Secretary of State for External Affairs is quite correct when he says

Expansion of Economic Assistance that the bulk of the Canadian people will support a generous program of aid to the underdeveloped and emerging nations of the world. I believe they will welcome the announcement which the Secretary of State for External Affairs has made regarding proposed increases in Canada's assistance in the coming fiscal year.

However, Mr. Speaker, the Secretary of State for External Affairs has such a marvellous capacity for wrapping up any gifts in tinsel, fancy ribbon and gift packaging that one might tend to be a little deceived as to just how much is in the package. Even after the increases which are proposed for the coming fiscal year, Canada's aid to underdeveloped countries will amount to less than one half of one per cent of our gross national product, and part of this amount of some $185 million to $190 million will be in the form of loans at low interest rates, so that it will not be entirely a gift.

I was surprised that the Secretary of State for External Affairs made mention of the assistance given to the Caribbean countries which have passed through very difficult times in recent months as a result of tornadoes. Our contribution to the entire Caribbean area was $20,000 in cash and skim milk powder worth about $80,000. This is a total contribution in cash and kind of about $100,000 to cover several countries which suffered very serious damage.

The government and the people of Canada have to take seriously this question of economic aid to underdeveloped areas. The latest figures available show that the share of the world's goods which goes to these nations is less now than it was before the war. It is greater in total, but in terms of the share of the world's total production it is less, because western production has grown so rapidly that the underdeveloped areas are today getting a smaller share of the world's total production than they used to get.

If the world is to have any hope of living at peace, then we must be prepared to spend more money assisting these underdeveloped areas. In the long run this will do more to maintain peace in the world than will the billions of dollars which the western world is spending on armaments. Many of these countries not only require immediate assistance but their most crying need is for capital and capital equipment, so they can increase their productivity and raise the living standards of their people.

We in this party welcome the announcement which has been made by the Secretary of State for External Affairs, but we think that even with this small increase we are doing far less than we ought to be doing.

Expansion of Economic Assistance We should not be satisfied with anything less than 1 per cent of our gross national product, and we in this party have for years advocated that our goal should be 2 per cent of Canada's gross national product as an investment in peace and in bringing economic prosperity to the underdeveloped areas of the world. We contend that the best hope for future generations to live in peace lies in this kind of aid, and that we ought to be diverting more of our money in this direction.

Topic:   DEBATES-CONCURRENCE IN FIRST REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   ANNOUNCEMENT OF EXPANSION OF ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS
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SC

Robert Norman Thompson

Social Credit

Mr. R. N. Thompson (Red Deer):

Mr. Speaker, we are pleased that the Secretary of State for External Affairs has made this announcement today. Certainly any increase in the aid we can give to those in a less favoured position than our own is to be commended, but I am concerned that even though this word is encouraging it is still only a very small part of what we could and should be doing.

The Secretary of State for External Affairs has mentioned that this will be adding something more than 50 per cent to the budget for this particular type of aid in the coming fiscal year. Even at that, and considering the statistics he gave to us yesterday, it will bring us only to approximately one half of what is being given per capita by the United Kingdom and West Germany, and only to a quarter of what is being given by the citizens of the United States and France. This is not good enough. I think we should realize that it is not only our moral obligation but it is also our privilege to be in a position where we can be doing more, and it is not to our credit that more is not being done.

I note with interest the areas to which this assistance will be given, and I agree with previous speakers that it is our first obligation to the commonwealth countries to prove that the spirit of understanding and good will that we have in the commonwealth should express itself in the type of assistance afforded in the Colombo plan that we have known so well down through the years. It is of particular interest that this assistance will be aimed to further helping the Caribbean area. I think this is a timely opportunity for us, because this is an area right on our own doorstep which is part of a volatile situation that could blow up at any time as far as Latin America and the neighbouring area of central America are concerned. It is an area where we could be making a total contribution that would really do some good. I trust the government will see fit to still further increase the aid that they suggest be given to the Caribbean area.

It is good, also, that we have Africa in mind. The Secretary of State for External

Affairs spoke of Latin America, and certainly there is no more needy part of the world than this. I wonder whether the Secretary of State for External Affairs might be considering tying in this materialistic assistance with the moral aid for which the people of Latin America have been looking for a long time, in our becoming a member of the organization of American states. I think this is a very important question, and we cannot very much longer avoid taking a decision on it.

I suggest to the Secretary of State for External Affairs that one of the greatest developed resources we have as Canadians is that reserve of good will which Canadian people have created for themselves and for their country. We should be making sure this resource is exploited to the maximum in considering this program of aid.

I also suggest that in planning the distribution of this aid we should make sure that it goes to areas where the assistance can make a distinct contribution in the field in which it is needed. It is not just in giving away that we can help these countries. Therefore I think it is a good thing that financial assistance is being made possible at no interest cost. We have this ability to help other people help themselves. I think this is a phase of aid which is not considered often enough. It is not just a hand-out that is wanted; it is assistance that will help people help themselves.

Therefore, Mr. Speaker, we support wholeheartedly what has been said here today, but we do hope it is only a small part of what is to come in the future.

Topic:   DEBATES-CONCURRENCE IN FIRST REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   ANNOUNCEMENT OF EXPANSION OF ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS
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RA

David Réal Caouette

Ralliement Créditiste

Mr. Real Caouetie (Villeneuve):

Mr. Speaker, the Canadian people will, I am sure, welcome the announcement made by the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Martin) to the effect that Canada's assistance to underdeveloped countries will be $190 million, that is an increase of $1-40 million over the contribution of the past few years. Canadians are anxious to help the have-not countries in the world through their government.

Canada's economic aid to underdeveloped countries will take the form of financial and technical assistance. As stated by those who spoke before me, financial aid is important but technical assistance is even more important since it enables the recipient countries to initiate projects, for if those countries need our financial help, they need above all the means to become self-supporting eventually. That is how we can contribute to the protection of those countries against subversive ideas.

We have been contributing to the Colombo plan for years. I am quite in favour of helping certain members of the commonwealth, that is certain, hard-pressed Caribbean countries. When I was in Jamaica, over a year ago, I saw people who wanted not so much our credit to purchase products as our technical assistance to improve their condition. Those countries have their own natural resources and they can develop themselves if we show them how and if we help them.

Now, it is a fine thing to help those countries, but I should like to remind the Secretary of State for External Affairs and the Prime Minister (Mr. Pearson) that we still have in Canada areas which are underdeveloped and where people experience hard times in the midst of abundance. We approve and we commend this assistance to the underdeveloped countries but the government should also have some thought for the Canadians who contribute to the development of this country of ours.

On the orders of the day:

Topic:   DEBATES-CONCURRENCE IN FIRST REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   ANNOUNCEMENT OF EXPANSION OF ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS
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NDP

Stanley Howard Knowles (N.D.P. House Leader; Whip of the N.D.P.)

New Democratic Party

Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Secretary of State for External Affairs which is related to his announcement about external aid. Is the cost of bringing students to Canada from overseas for courses to enable them to contribute to the development of their own countries included in the cost totals that he gave today, or is this an additional amount?

Topic:   DEBATES-CONCURRENCE IN FIRST REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   ANNOUNCEMENT OF EXPANSION OF ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS
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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Hon. Paul Martin (Secretary of Stale for External Affairs):

That kind of program could be included. It is a matter for decision in each case. The program to be covered by the expenditures is a matter to be decided when dealing with the application and with each project.

Topic:   DEBATES-CONCURRENCE IN FIRST REPORT OF STANDING COMMITTEE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   ANNOUNCEMENT OF EXPANSION OF ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS
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SOUTH VIET NAM

RECOGNITION OF NEW GOVERNMENT


On the orders of the day:


PC

John George Diefenbaker (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):

Mr. Speaker, would the Secretary of State for External Affairs say what the decision has been regarding recognition of the provisional revolutionary government of South Viet Nam. What are the considerations that impelled the government to its decision, and would the minister deal in general with the ominous situation in that country consequent upon the change of administration?

Topic:   SOUTH VIET NAM
Subtopic:   RECOGNITION OF NEW GOVERNMENT
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November 14, 1963