November 12, 1963

PRIVILEGE

MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE

NDP

David Orlikow

New Democratic Party

Mr. David Orlikow (Winnipeg North):

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege. On numerous occasions in this house questions have been asked of the government in respect to the proposed move of the T.C.A. repair facilities from Winnipeg to Montreal. The matter has been debated on various occasions in the house, and an important factor in the decision to move the repair base was a report submitted to the management of T.C.A. by a management consultant organization, Dixon-Speas.

On numerous occasions members of the house, as well as the government of the province of Manitoba, have asked that this report be made available to them so that the information and recommendations contained in it could be analysed and assessed. To date the government has refused to make this report available, either to members of the house or to the government of Manitoba; yet the Winnipeg Free Press of November 5 carried a report that the hon. member for Winnipeg South (Mrs. Konantz) wired the Prime Minister urging the appointment of a new person or tribunal to study the whole question.

The same news story reports that the Prime Minister replied that such an appointment would be an evasion of the government's responsibility and merely another delaying action, and the Prime Minister suggested that:

-the government of Manitoba and appropriate bodies in Winnipeg put forward all the evidence they could assemble on these other factors.

The same issue of the Winnipeg Free Press reports:

Mr. Pearson's telegram was read at the Winnipeg South Liberal association meeting Monday night. Mrs. Konantz said she had seen the Dixon-Speas report and could understand why it could not be made public. She said it contained information which could not be given to Canadian Pacific Air Lines, T.C.A.'s main competitor.

My point of privilege is that members of the house and the Manitoba government have been refused access to this important document upon which rests the main argument

for the movement of T.C.A. repair facilities from Winnipeg to Montreal, while the document has been shown to the hon. member for Winnipeg South. This demonstrates again partiality to government members and is an infringement of the rights of all other members of the House of Commons.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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?

Maurice Bourget (Speaker of the Senate)

Mr. Speaker:

Is there any other member who wishes to speak to this question?

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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NDP

Stanley Howard Knowles (N.D.P. House Leader; Whip of the N.D.P.)

New Democratic Party

Mr. Knowles:

We would like to hear from the Minister of Transport.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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LIB

George James McIlraith (Minister of Transport)

Liberal

Hon. G. J. Mcllraith (Minister of Transport):

Mr. Speaker, I regret that I only heard part of the statement as I was coming into the chamber. However, if I heard it correctly it raises a very important matter. Certainly I would want to consider it quite carefully before making a statement on it, because this report has not been shown even to my colleagues. Probably I should not develop the subject without knowing what was said by the hon. gentleman. Perhaps I should look into his statement quite carefully when I have the actual text.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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PC

John George Diefenbaker (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):

In this connection, may I say that this appears to be another step toward contempt of parliament, and I should think the Prime Minister would be the one who would answer as to whether information was made available to the Liberal association of Winnipeg that has been denied to the parliament of Canada.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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LIB

Lester Bowles Pearson (Prime Minister)

Liberal

Right Hon. L. B. Pearson (Prime Minister):

I can deny that statement at once. Naturally I would be very glad to look into the report that has been given to the house from the press, and, either the Minister of Transport or I, if there is anything to be said on this matter, will say it in the house. Surely we cannot be expected to comment on a newspaper report of this importance without having had an opportunity to look into the matter. However, as far as the hon. gentleman's statement is concerned, I can deny it at once.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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Maurice Bourget (Speaker of the Senate)

Mr. Speaker:

I have to decide whether there is or is not a question of privilege. Once more I should like to refer to Beauchesne's fourth edition, citation 113, which reads in part as follows:

Members often raise so-called "questions of privilege" on matters which should be dealt with as personal explanations or corrections, either in

Question of Privilege

the debates or the proceedings of the house. A question of privilege ought rarely to come up in parliament. It should be dealt with by a motion giving the house power to impose a reparation or apply a remedy.

I noticed that no motion followed the question of privilege. In the circumstances I must rule this is more in the nature of a criticism or a complaint than a question of privilege.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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NDP

David Orlikow

New Democratic Party

Mr. Orlikow:

May I say that I shall be glad, after I hear the statement by the minister explaining precisely what has happened in this matter, to move a motion tomorrow or whenever the minister may make his statement.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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NDP

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

New Democratic Party

Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquitlam):

think it should be made clear this is not merely a complaint. The hon. member is raising a matter which is of vital concern to the privileges of this house, in that a document which has been denied to members of parliament and the government of Manitoba allegedly, according to the press, has been made available to a member of this house sitting on the government side. This is certainly a matter of privilege and not merely a complaint, if the hon. member's own statement is correctly reported. I think an explanation is due from the government as soon as they have an opportunity of interviewing that member and finding out whether she actually made the statement attributed to her.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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Maurice Bourget (Speaker of the Senate)

Mr. Speaker:

As I said before, there is no doubt about the importance of the matter. However, if it is that important it should be followed by a motion. No motion was presented this morning. I do not mind taking the matter under consideration for a day or so. I think we will just leave it there, and I will take it under consideration and give a final decision tomorrow.

On the orders of the day:

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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PC

Warner Herbert Jorgenson

Progressive Conservative

Mr. W. H. Jorgenson (Provencher):

Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Could the minister tell us whether he has shown a copy of the Dixon-Speas report to the hon. member for Winnipeg South?

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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LIB

George James McIlraith (Minister of Transport)

Liberal

Hon. G. J. Mcllrailh (Minister of Transport):

Mr. Speaker, I think that question is wrapped up with the allegation made by the hon. member for Winnipeg North. I did not hear the whole of that allegation; I heard only the latter part of it, and it seems to me it is of the utmost gravity and seriousness. Therefore I would prefer to take the question as notice and leave it to be answered with the other.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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PC

Warner Herbert Jorgenson

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Jorgenson:

I presume then the answer is yes.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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LIB

George James McIlraith (Minister of Transport)

Liberal

Mr. Mcllrailh:

The hon. member has no right to make any such presumption.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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PC

Stuart A. Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming (Okanagan-Revelstoke):

How

could he make anything else?

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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NDP

Stanley Howard Knowles (N.D.P. House Leader; Whip of the N.D.P.)

New Democratic Party

Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Transport or the Prime Minister whether arrangements have been made with a delegation from Manitoba to meet with the federal government, concerning the question of the transfer of the T.C.A. overhaul and maintenance base from Winnipeg and, if so, what will be the date of that meeting?

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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LIB

Lester Bowles Pearson (Prime Minister)

Liberal

Right Hon. L. B. Pearson (Prime Minister):

Mr. Speaker, to my knowledge there has been no request for another meeting, but I will have to look into that matter and see if a request has come in over the week end. If a request is made, naturally we will be very glad to receive the delegation.

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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NDP

Stanley Howard Knowles (N.D.P. House Leader; Whip of the N.D.P.)

New Democratic Party

Mr. Knowles:

Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the Minister of Transport. Does the minister need notice to answer the question whether or not he showed the Dixon-Speas report to the hon. member for Winnipeg South?

Topic:   PRIVILEGE
Subtopic:   MR. ORLIKOW AVAILABILITY OF REPORT RESPECTING T.C.A. WINNIPEG MAINTENANCE BASE
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November 12, 1963