January 29, 1963

LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin

Liberal

Mr. Martin (Essex East):

During the general

discussion mention has been made of the planning programs of various European countries including the United Kingdom. Mention has been made that the chancellor of the exchequer, who holds a position in the United Kingdom similar to that occupied by the minister of finance here, occupies the post of chairman of the Neddy council. Can the minister say whether or not any consideration has been given to this arrangement and what his feeling in connection with the proposal is. It will be remembered that my hon. friend from Coast-Capilano emphasized this in his speech.

Topic:   NATIONAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BOARD
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR DEFINITION OF DUTIES, APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

George Clyde Nowlan (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Nowlan:

Yes. I should say, I suppose, that this is a suggestion to which consideration was given in the preliminary drafting of the bill. The official with whom I was associated realized that in the United Kingdom the chancellor of the exchequer was the chairman of a board popularly called Neddy. I would not say that we gave too careful consideration to this because it was felt that it was unusual on a board such as this, one to which we wanted to attract all areas of our economy to give advice to the government. It was felt that there might be some difficulty in appointing a member of the executive for the time being, whatever might be the party in power, or whoever he might be, to be chairman of the board. It was felt that the board should be kept relatively small, as has been pointed out by various hon. members; that there should be a permanent chairman who would give direction to the operations of the board and who would not be responsible for administrative details or responsibilities, as would a minister. I know that I do not have to remind the hon. member for Essex East of the problems of a minister in any department. Although it is true-and I say this without any reflection upon Neddy-that the chancellor of the exchequer in the United Kingdom is the chairman of the board, he carries so many responsibilities that I am quite sure he does not give the intensive direction to that board which we felt a chairman should give to this one. Therefore, it was decided by the government, and I suggest properly decided, that the chairman should be somebody brought in from outside who would act as chairman of the board, in the same way that other government

3224 HOUSE OF

National Economic Development Board boards have chairmen outside of the executive.

Topic:   NATIONAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BOARD
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR DEFINITION OF DUTIES, APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin

Liberal

Mr. Martin (Essex East):

The minister's statement is an important one. It clearly indicates that the government does not have in mind the kind of body which exists in the United Kingdom, which exists in France, and about which we had some considerable detail from the hon. member for Gaspe yesterday in the very excellent speech which he delivered. We have no indication from the government of any intention to have a liaison between the government as such and this board except, as will be found in subsequent provisions in the bill, occasion is offered for reporting by the board to the minister. We will not even have what they have in France, the existence of a government rapporteur, who sits not only in the councils which have to do with the public, as well as the private sector. In France, in the top council, the "conseil superieur" and in the "commissariat du plan", provision is made for the existence of a rapporteur who represents the government. This we are not to have in the case of this particular board being set up by this bill. This gives an indication at this stage in our proceedings that the government does not have in mind the kind of planning body which the national productivity council special mission to Europe has reported on so favourably and which it has recommended for adoption in this country.

Topic:   NATIONAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BOARD
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR DEFINITION OF DUTIES, APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

George Clyde Nowlan (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Nowlan:

Well, Mr. Chairman, I do not want to get into a discussion on the details with the hon. member. As I said last night, the constitutional situation in France and in the United Kingdom, and in other European countries as well, is quite different from that in this country where we have a federal state, with provinces, and where the laws are such that it is very difficult to set up a unitary commission such as you might have in France or in other countries. Also in this country, rightly or wrongly, and I am sure the hon. member for Essex East will agree with me rightly, the state does not have the degree of control over industry which it has, shall we say, for instance, in France; so I suggest there is no complete parallel which one can draw between the two. When we come to the consideration of clauses 9, 10 and 11 we find that the duties and responsibilities of the board are set out. In clause 12 it is provided that:

The board shall, to the greatest possible extent consistent with the performance of its duties under this act, co-operate with the national productivity council, the Atlantic development board, and all departments, branches and other agencies of the government of Canada-

I can assure the hon. member that it is the intent of those who are responsible for

the inception, the drafting and the presentation of this bill to parliament that the closest co-operation and liaison between this board and all other facets of the Canadian economy, so far as the federal government is concerned, will take place, and I hope that that is also the case with the provincial governments in so far as they feel they can co-operate with this board in the development of the Canadian economy.

Topic:   NATIONAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BOARD
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR DEFINITION OF DUTIES, APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin

Liberal

Mr. Martin (Essex East):

Mr. Chairman, I would not want the remarks of the minister to be construed as establishing that we on this side had recommended overlooking the federal character of our constitution.

Topic:   NATIONAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BOARD
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR DEFINITION OF DUTIES, APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

George Clyde Nowlan (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Nowlan:

No, I did not mean that.

Topic:   NATIONAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BOARD
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR DEFINITION OF DUTIES, APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin

Liberal

Mr. Martin (Essex East):

I am sure the minister did not mean that. But because he has made the observation, I think some comment is essential. I clearly indicated when speaking on the resolution that a complete parallel between what we proposed and what exists in various European nations was not possible in Canada because in every instance we were dealing with unitary states in Europe, whereas in Canada we have a federal state with ten provincial bodies operating and exercising sovereign powers under section 92 of the British North America Act. This difference between our constitutional set-up and that of the European countries offers in itself no justification, it seems to me for the suggestion made by the minister. As I pointed out, or endeavoured to point out, in my previous statement, there must be the closest possible co-operation between the federal and provincial governments to make effective the purposes of a planning board which is intended to deal in a total way with the economic problems of Canada. Indeed, I complained that this bill was deficient, as we shall later show when we come to the pertinent clause, in that it does not make provision for the co-operation which must prevail between the two senior levels of government. The minister is quite right that because of the property and civil rights clause in the British North America Act, it is open only to the provinces to exercise those powers which are exercised, for instance, in the United Kingdom under the town and country planning act. But it should be possible, having in mind the fiscal powers of the federal government with regard to its general and unlimited tax policy, for the federal government to be able to work out arrangements in connection with the provincial power over industry, let us say, in any given province in order to meet the problem of, for example, the relocation of industry mentioned by the hon. member for Essex West the other evening. This bill will be one

National Economic Development Board

having a most limited scope unless we provide in it an obligation of the board and of the government to bring about a co-operative effort between the two levels of government to achieve objectives which we think even in a limited way are encompassed in clause 9 of the bill.

Clause 2 agreed to.

On clause 3-Establishment of board.

Topic:   NATIONAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BOARD
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR DEFINITION OF DUTIES, APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

John Carr Munro

Liberal

Mr. Munro:

Mr. Chairman, I should like to address a few remarks to the minister with respect to clause 3. We find this clause objectionable because there is no reference made to any action which the minister or the government must take with regard to consulting any of the principal organizations throughout the country which represent the various economic areas of Canadian life, presumably the very organizations the co-operation and assistance of which are going to be required if the aims of this board are to be realized. I think an outstanding example of the very thing which could happen here and which happened to a board somewhat similar in function to this one, namely the national productivity council, was the resignation of Mr. Claude Jodoin. It is not so much an example of the fact that he represents the Canadian Labour Congress but of the fact that he represents a large organization and presumably speaks for a large number of people in one specific area of our economic life. This could apply to the Canadian Manufacturers' Association or any other such organization where the government wishes to appoint a representative of that organization and puts men on a board, but owing to dissatisfaction with the manner of the appointment it did not get the co-operation of the association involved.

In pointing out the example of the appointment of Mr. Claude Jodoin, I would say that he resigned from the national productivity council on the basis that he was appointed without being consulted prior to his appointment. That is the first point. The second point is that he was not appointed as a representative of the large organization of which he was the head, namely the Canadian Labour Congress, and therefore felt that any contribution he could make to the national productivity council was severely limited, in that he could not speak for the Canadian Labour Congress, the very congress whose co-operation the national productivity council needed ever so badly, since the co-operation of labour and management was an essential to any proper carrying out of the duties of the national productivity council.

I cannot see how this legislation prevents a similar occurrence taking place with respect

to the national economic development board. Again, and I may say this matter has been gone into several times in this House of Commons, the duties of this board seem to overlap to a considerable extent those of the national productivity council. Perhaps it is the suspicion of many of us that the ultimate purpose is to have it take over the national productivity council. If that is so, it is all the more important that the manner of appointment is such as to ensure the utmost cooperation of management and labour, to say nothing of agriculture, or the purpose of the national economic board will never be realized.

In view of this consideration I think it is essential to make an amendment to this particular clause. At the same time this amendment, it will be noted, does not derogate from the government's ultimate responsibility and jurisdiction in making an appointment. What the amendment does is to ensure that the organizations whose assistance is essential for this body are consulted prior to the appointment and that to some degree the government can be assured that, once the appointment is made, the particular appointee will be able to commit to a considerable extent the principal organizations of the country of which he is a member to assist in the carrying out of this board's duties. To that end I should like to make the following amendment:

That the period in line 15 he replaced by a comma and the following words be added:

after consultation with the principal organizations representative of trade unions, farmers, and other groups as the governor in council may determine.

Topic:   NATIONAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BOARD
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR DEFINITION OF DUTIES, APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

Rémi Paul (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Progressive Conservative

The Deputy Chairman:

Is the committee ready for the question?

Topic:   NATIONAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BOARD
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR DEFINITION OF DUTIES, APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS, ETC.
Permalink
NDP

William Arnold Peters

New Democratic Party

Mr. Peters:

While we agree that some consideration should be given to this amendment, I believe it does not go nearly far enough. One of the problems in connection with the operation of the productivity council is that we are asking for advice and assistance from a number of groups and yet we are not allowing these groups to have an active part in the selection of their representatives, and therefore not after consultation with the governor in council but with the organizations which are interested in and concerned with this matter. They should have the opportunity of nominating their own representatives. The reason for this is simple. If we are going to ask for the co-operation of certain industries and certain large corporations as was done during the last war, then there is one thing that should be done. On that occasion we gave them representation in the form of dollar-a-year men in many cases. However, these men had the backing of the independent companies who were paying them, and they went

Private Bills

to their assignments with the understanding that if they made a suggestion to the government, that suggestion was one which they could put into effect.

While I do not wish to discuss the representatives of corporations, I know that in a union it is extremely difficult to elect, through convention or in any manner through which a representative may be chosen, one who will go and take part in deliberations in a council or other body and who is not in a position to commit the organization he is representing. This situation cannot come by selection. It cannot come by the governor in council asking for this, as actually that is the cabinet. It can come only if the representative is one who has the permission and direction of his organization to back up the representations he makes. I suggest that is something that has been done in days gone by and that in this particular case anything less will not be particularly successful. May I call it five o'clock, Mr. Chairman?

Topic:   NATIONAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BOARD
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR DEFINITION OF DUTIES, APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

Rémi Paul (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Progressive Conservative

The Deputy Chairman:

It being five o'clock, it is my duty to leave the chair in order that the house may proceed to the consideration of private members' business, pursuant to section 3 of standing order 15.

Clause 3 stands.

Progress reported.

Topic:   NATIONAL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BOARD
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR DEFINITION OF DUTIES, APPOINTMENT OF MEMBERS, ETC.
Permalink

PRIVATE BILLS

PC

Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Speaker:

It being five o'clock the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business. The items for consideration today are private bills which appear on pages 19 to 57 of today's order paper.

Topic:   PRIVATE BILLS
Permalink
PC

Kenneth Hamill (Ken) More

Progressive Conservative

Mr. More:

Mr. Speaker, I should like to seek the unanimous consent of the house to have dealt with first item No. 370 on today's order paper, namely second reading of Bill S-9, an act respecting the Evangelical Lutheran Synod of Western Canada.

Topic:   PRIVATE BILLS
Permalink
?

Some hon. Members:

Agreed.

Topic:   PRIVATE BILLS
Permalink
PC

Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Speaker:

The hon. member for Regina City seeks the unanimous consent of the house to have considered, in priority to all other items, item No. 370 on today's order paper, being second reading of Bill S-9, an act respecting the Evangelical Synod of Western Canada. Has the hon. member such consent?

Topic:   PRIVATE BILLS
Permalink
?

Some hon. Members:

Agreed.

Topic:   PRIVATE BILLS
Permalink

THE EVANGELICAL LUTHERAN SYNOD OF WESTERN CANADA

PC

Kenneth Hamill (Ken) More

Progressive Conservative

Mr. K. H. More (Regina City) moved

the second reading of Bill No. S-9, respecting the Evangelical Lutheran Synod of Western Canada.

Topic:   THE EVANGELICAL LUTHERAN SYNOD OF WESTERN CANADA
Permalink
PC

Marcel Joseph Aimé Lambert (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Speaker:

Is it the pleasure of the house to adopt the motion?

Topic:   THE EVANGELICAL LUTHERAN SYNOD OF WESTERN CANADA
Permalink

January 29, 1963