November 20, 1962

BANKING AND COMMERCE


Second report of standing committee on banking and commerce-Mr. Aiken.


EXTERNAL AFFAIRS

PC

John George Diefenbaker (Prime Minister)

Progressive Conservative

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):

Mr. Speaker, I am sure that all members of the house have followed with concern reports of the fighting now being conducted on India's northern frontiers against the communist Chinese invasion of India.

Despite determined resistance, Indian forces have had to withdraw. In the northwest frontier area, in the Ladakh district of Kashmir, the situation at the moment appears to be relatively stable though strong Chinese attacks are being directed toward the capture of an important Indian air field at Chushul. In the northeast frontier area, however, between Bhutan and Burma, the Chinese have delivered two massive attacks, moving beyond Walong near the Burmese border and pressing south of the Se La pass near the Bhutan border.

The result of this Chinese offensive has been to bring their troops to within 30 miles of the Assam plains, a part of India of great economic value and importance. In these plains flows the great Brahmaputra river, which is a vital factor in the lives of the people of northeast India, and also for the people of East Pakistan. In these grave circumstances we would all wish to assure once more the Indian people and the Indian army of our support for their determination to defeat aggression, and our sympathy for the losses they have suffered.

We have given, and intend to give, practical evidence of our support for India at this time. As I stated to the house on November 5, we have dispatched six DC-3 Dakota transport aircraft in answer to an urgent Indian request. These aircraft were flown out by R.C.A.F. aircrews and are now in India. Over the week end we received, through the Canadian high commissioner in New Delhi, more specific advice from the Indian government about their needs for further assistance in the form of aircraft, clothing for their forces

and other materials. In the light of this additional information the government is at the moment urgently considering how we can best meet the Indian government's requests and the most expeditious way by which our assistance can be sent to India.

There is one other factor in the present situation which derives from the fact that the great and populous subcontinent, part of whose borders has been penetrated, is shared by two commonwealth countries, India and Pakistan. The long standing differences between India and Pakistan over Kashmir have been a cause of regret to Canada and the other commonwealth countries for many years. We cherish a deep fraternal regard for both countries and have tried over the years to find means to reconcile their differences.

In the present circumstances, when communist Chinese aggression has forced India into a bloody conflict, the entire subcontinent, home of both India and Pakistan, is exposed to a grave threat. We would hope that this ominous situation might give new impetus to the search for a settlement between these two fellow members of the commonwealth. Such a settlement would facilitate a concentration of effort against the invading forces on the northern frontier; and I want to make this clear, that if there is anything Canada can do to further such a settlement, the Canadian government will respond wholeheartedly.

Topic:   BANKING AND COMMERCE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   INDIA-STATEMENT ON PRESENT POSITION
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LIB

Lester Bowles Pearson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):

Mr. Speaker, the information which the Prime Minister has been good enough to give the house makes it clear that the situation which now confronts India is a tragic one, as she faces aggression from China across her borders. It is also a strange situation in that there seems to be war in everything except the formal declaration of it. While this massive assault is being made on India, because that apparently is what it is, I gather diplomatic and trade relationships between the two countries have been maintained.

Of course this situation may change, and if it does change and India becomes not only the actual but the formal victim of aggression, then India's friends will have to reexamine their own relationships with the aggressor. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, this would be particularly true if the matter were brought before the United Nations and a decision in regard to aggression was taken there. There

Statement on Position of India may be very good reasons why this matter has not been brought before the United Nations assembly or the security council up to the present time, but I have noted, as no doubt the Prime Minister and others have noted, that tentative efforts have been made already on the part of some United Nations members to see whether it is possible to use the assembly or the security council for mediatory purposes. Perhaps that will be possible in the days ahead.

The Prime Minister mentioned-and I am glad he did, because it has a bearing on this situation-the relations between India and her neighbour and colleague in the commonwealth, Pakistan. It seems to me a very sad situation indeed when uncertainty on the oorder between these two friendly countries is such that apparently the Indian government is unable to move certain forces from that area to help repel the aggressor. If the Indian government could give an assurance to the Pakistan government that would be accepted that in moving these forces to meet the aggression, any additional equipment received would never be used against Pakistan, and if Pakistan in its turn could give an assurance that there would be no danger to India as a result of these forces being moved for the purpose of meeting the aggressor, that could be an important move toward peace on the part of these two countries and toward meeting the aggression. So I was very glad to hear the Prime Minister speak on that subject in the way he did.

(Translation):

Topic:   BANKING AND COMMERCE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   INDIA-STATEMENT ON PRESENT POSITION
Permalink
SC

David Réal Caouette

Social Credit

Mr. Real Caouetie (Villeneuve):

Mr. Speaker, we are indebted to the right hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Diefenbaker) for keeping us informed about the serious and explosive situation which now exists in India and also for asserting that Canada will do everything possible not only to help establish peace in India, now attacked by communist China, but especially to bring about unity between two member countries of the commonwealth of nations, Pakistan and India.

Such a mutual understanding is absolutely necessary if the aggressors are to be faced with a united front.

The right hon. Prime Minister assures us that Canada will spare no effort to bring about unity between those two countries. I believe that, by so doing, Canada, as one of the free nations of the world, we will help not only to settle quarrels between two friendly countries, but, above all, to offer a united front, a determined opposition to the communist aggressor, China.

We thank the right hon. Prime Minister and we all support the vigorous stand taken ragarding a situation which has become intolerable in India.

(Text):

Topic:   BANKING AND COMMERCE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   INDIA-STATEMENT ON PRESENT POSITION
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NDP

Thomas Clement (Tommy) Douglas

New Democratic Party

Mr. T. C. Douglas (Burnaby-Coquitlam):

Mr. Speaker, I am sure all hon. members of the house and the people of Canada are deeply concerned about the setbacks which have been suffered by the Indian forces at the hands of the Chinese who have been carrying on a campaign of unprovoked aggression on the Indian border. I am sure also the country will be glad to hear the assurance given by the Prime Minister that Canada will give every possible aid to India.

I hope the Prime Minister will, if not today then on some subsequent occasion, tell the house just how tangible is this assistance. I understand that the Indian government were very anxious some time ago to get Caribou planes. Maybe it is not feasible to get these planes to them at this time. Certainly the house would like to know, and I think the people of Canada would like to know, that every available commodity and whatever military equipment which is in our possession and which is needed by the government of India will be made available to them as quickly as possible.

I think also people will be encouraged by the statement of the Prime Minister with reference to the members of the commonwealth seeking to give all the assistance they can in trying to settle the dispute between Pakistan and India. At the present time, my information is that some of the best units of the Indian army are being tied up on the border of Pakistan and that the government of Pakistan, rather than being enthusiastic about outside military aid being supplied to India, is concerned lest at some future date this military aid should be turned against her. This makes it imperative that some settlement be brought about, either by members of the commonwealth acting as mediators or by having the matter brought before the United Nations where it was before, but later dropped because of the refusal of India to agree to a plebiscite.

The other point raised concerns the position Canada should take with reference to the aggressor nation in this dispute. As the Leader of the Opposition has said, there may be good reasons why this question has not been brought before the United Nations. It may be that as long as this was simply a border dispute there were no grounds for bringing it before that body. However, if this attack is now a full scale invasion it seems to me that Canada should be pressing for the submission of this matter to the United

Nations so that if any action is to be taken it may be taken on an international basis. Canada is carrying on a considerable trade with China, and I think for Canada herself to take unilateral action would have little effect. I feel sure that the Canadian people and this House of Commons would back the government in supporting an international move toward economic sanctions if the United Nations felt this would be an effective means of deterring the aggressor.

On the orders of the day:

Topic:   BANKING AND COMMERCE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   INDIA-STATEMENT ON PRESENT POSITION
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LIB

Lester Bowles Pearson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Hon. L. B. Pearson (Leader of the Opposition):

Mr. Speaker, arising out of the statement the Prime Minister has just made on the situation on the Indo-Chinese border and the desirability of helping India to the maximum possible extent, can the Prime Minister tell the house in somewhat greater detail what has been done in this regard and what the government may propose to do to add to the shipments already forwarded?

Topic:   BANKING AND COMMERCE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   INDIA-STATEMENT ON PRESENT POSITION
Permalink
PC

John George Diefenbaker (Prime Minister)

Progressive Conservative

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Prime Minister):

Mr. Speaker, discussions are taking place among representatives of the governments of India, Canada, the United Kingdom and the United States in order to determine what are the particular requirements of the Indian government at this time. To date a final determination has not been made in that regard.

However, the Leader of the Opposition has asked me to make some reference to what has already been done. I mentioned previously the Dakota aircraft. In view of the fact that these aircraft have been in the possession of the Royal Canadian Air Force for some time and can be transferred without making any material difference to the strength of the air force, Canada does not propose to ask India to pay for their value to the R.C.A.F. on any basis of their estimated market value. That estimate is from $50,000 to $75,000 for each and every one of these aircraft. India will reimburse the Canadian government for the out of pocket costs involved in preparing these aircraft for delivery and delivering them to India. It is estimated that this will not amount to more than approximately $5,000 per aircraft.

In addition there was a request from the Indian Red Cross for certain wool, and the government made arrangements to supply this knitting wool to the Indian Red Cross. The cost of furnishing this wool will be met in the first instance out of the appropriation for minor and unforeseen expenses, and it is expected that arrangements can be made

Statement on Position of India to have it flown to India from time to time as it is required, without cost to the Indian Red Cross.

Furthermore, the Indian government has placed before the Canadian government a list of various clothing items, cloth, woollens and the like, with respect to which they are asking us to give consideration to having them supplied from Canada. As I said a moment ago, these conversations and discussions are continuing, and as decisions are arrived at they will be placed before the house.

Topic:   BANKING AND COMMERCE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   INDIA-STATEMENT ON PRESENT POSITION
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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin

Liberal

Hon. Paul Martin (Essex East):

May I ask

a supplementary question of the Secretary of State for External Affairs. Can the minister say whether or not, in view of the heavy contribution in men and arms by India to the United Nations force in the Congo, there have been any discussions between Canada and other countries designed to relieve India of that obligation so that she can more completely address herself to her own critical situation at home?

Topic:   BANKING AND COMMERCE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   INDIA-STATEMENT ON PRESENT POSITION
Permalink
PC

Howard Charles Green (Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Progressive Conservative

Hon. Howard C. Green (Secretary of State for External Affairs):

No, Mr. Speaker, and there is nothing definite yet with respect to whether the Indian troops will be withdrawn from the Congo.

Topic:   BANKING AND COMMERCE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   INDIA-STATEMENT ON PRESENT POSITION
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LIB

Guy Rouleau

Liberal

Mr. Guy Rouleau (Dollard):

I should like to address a supplementary question to the Prime Minister. Has the Prime Minister given any consideration to using the CL-44 made by Canadair to transport military equipment from Canada to India?

Topic:   BANKING AND COMMERCE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   INDIA-STATEMENT ON PRESENT POSITION
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PC

John George Diefenbaker (Prime Minister)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

Mr. Speaker, the question of transporting military equipment and the like follows discussion between the two governments. No consideration has been given to the suggestion in the question.

Topic:   BANKING AND COMMERCE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   INDIA-STATEMENT ON PRESENT POSITION
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LIB

James Elisha Brown

Liberal

Mr. James E. Brown (Brantford):

I should like to ask a question of the Prime Minister. Is he in a position to advise the house to what actual extent this government will go in giving assistance to India against Chinese aggression?

Topic:   BANKING AND COMMERCE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   INDIA-STATEMENT ON PRESENT POSITION
Permalink
PC

John George Diefenbaker (Prime Minister)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

I have already pointed out that the Indian government discusses these matters concerning its requirements with the three governments I mentioned and, as a result of these discussions, decisions are made.

Topic:   BANKING AND COMMERCE
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   INDIA-STATEMENT ON PRESENT POSITION
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FINANCE

STATEMENT ON SALES OF CANADA SAVINGS BONDS

PC

George Clyde Nowlan (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Progressive Conservative

Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of Finance):

In view of the fact that the advertisements for Canada savings bonds

Sales of Savings Bonds expired on November 15, I should like to make a short statement in connection therewith.

I am pleased to report to the house that recorded sales of Canada savings bonds up to and including Friday, November 16 were $1,350 million. A matter of special satisfaction to me is that this amount involved nearly 1,470,000 individual orders. The dollar total is 65 per cent higher than was recorded at the same time last year, and the number of orders is 28 per cent higher. Such a widespread sale is clear indication that Canada savings bonds are indeed the preferred investment by a wide margin for thrifty Canadian citizens in every walk of life.

I am equally pleased to be able to report that reported sales as of the same date through the payroll savings plan are $217 million. This is 2 per cent ahead of reported sales in this category last year, which hon. members may recall ultimately produced an alltime record of $223 million. The number of individual transactions involved totals 637,000, and the average payroll purchase amounted to over $340 as compared to the average purchase of $333 last year. I have no doubt that when final figures are available, this year's payroll savings sales will establish a new high mark by a comfortable margin.

It is appropriate that at this time I should extend my congratulations and appreciation to those who have made these splendid results possible. In particular I want to express appreciation to the thousands of voluntary payroll canvassers who enabled fellow employees to make the most of the payroll savings plan. I also extend this appreciation to the many hundreds of employers who willingly provided the necessary facilities and displayed enthusiasm and leadership in seeing that the campaign was well carried out.

Appreciation is also well merited by editors and operators of radio and T.V. stations who kept the public fully informed of the importance of the offering, of the advantages of purchase and of the progress of the campaign. Finally, 1 should also include in this appreciation the various sales agents and their employees who were responsible for the major proportion of total sales and who worked hard and efficiently to deal with the flood of orders that crossed their counters.

(Translation):

Topic:   FINANCE
Subtopic:   STATEMENT ON SALES OF CANADA SAVINGS BONDS
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SC

Gilles Grégoire

Social Credit

Mr. Gilles Gregoire (Lapointe):

Mr. Speaker, I have a few comments to make about what the Minister of Finance (Mr. Nowlan) just stated, but I regret that my observations will not have the same tenor as his.

The Minister of Finance is pleased with the increased sales of the Canadian government bonds. But every time he gets money from the people by selling them bonds, it means that less funds will be invested in the development of the country. He is getting money merely to add to our debt but not to invest in the future of Canada.

That is why I am not as pleased as the Minister of Finance to note such an increase in the sale of bonds.

Besides, another reason why I am not so very happy about those bond sales, is that those who buy them will have to pay taxes to repay those bonds and the interests involved. Finally, the people will have nothing to gain in the process, because they will pay taxes.

Mr. Speaker, a remarkable thing about the sale of those bonds is that businessmen are more interested in investing in the country's debt than in its assets. That is to say, they prefer to invest in the national debt rather than in the development of industry and trade.

Topic:   FINANCE
Subtopic:   STATEMENT ON SALES OF CANADA SAVINGS BONDS
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?

An hon. Member:

Let us print some money. (Text):

Topic:   FINANCE
Subtopic:   STATEMENT ON SALES OF CANADA SAVINGS BONDS
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November 20, 1962