April 18, 1962

PC

George Clyde Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Nowlan:

Mr. Chairman, on a question of privilege, the hon. member said the Minister of Veterans Affairs has not told the truth. I am asking him to retract it.

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PC
PC

Paul Raymond Martineau (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

The Chairman:

Order. I will hear the hon. member on the question of privilege.

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Some hon. Members:

Withdraw.

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An hon. Member:

Withdraw or be named.

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NDP

Frank Howard

New Democratic Party

Mr. Howard:

Oh, here is this threat of naming again that comes up. It is the first thing that comes to one's mind, to name someone.

Divorce Bills

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An hon. Member:

Withdraw.

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NDP

Frank Howard

New Democratic Party

Mr. Howard:

If you will contain your blood pressure for a moment, I will. I withdraw and say this, that what the minister said is not in accordance with the facts; and that is a true statement. That was placed on the record yesterday. When the minister gets up here and invites us to get down in the gutter with him, I refuse to co-operate.

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Some hon. Members:

Oh, oh.

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PC

Murray Douglas Morton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Morton:

Mr. Chairman, I rise on a question of privilege. The hon. member has made an attack upon the minister. I can assure the committee and all hon. members of this house that the minister has done all he can within the realm of practical politics to come to some solution of this problem. I want to say that some of us have negotiated with hon. gentlemen on the other side of the chamber. We came to what we thought was the principle for a solution and waited until we had word from another group as to whether the general principles agreed upon would bring about the solution desired. But it was only at the last minute that we heard this arrangement had fallen through.

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Some hon. Members:

Oh, oh.

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NDP
PC

Murray Douglas Morton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Morton:

I have had private conversations on this matter. The hon. member was kind enough yesterday not to divulge the names of people involved, and I am not going to involve people either. All I am saying is that we waited, and so did the people who are now trying to heckle me, until we thought a solution had been reached. It was at the eleventh hour that we found nothing could be done. I say it is most unfair to blame the minister, who helped us try to reach a solution and who himself was let down at the last minute.

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PC

George Clyde Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Nowlan:

On a question of privilege-

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NDP
PC

George Clyde Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Nowlan:

I am on a question of privilege. The hon. member for Skeena did withdraw, or at least in part, or pretended to withdraw-as he does in regard to most things he says in this house-the allegation that the Minister of Veterans Affairs had told an untruth. Then he said he descended into the gutter, or words to that effect. That is just as unparliamentary and I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the hon. member- or "the member"; forget the "honourable"- for Skeena should stand up and withdraw more of the canards which he has been throwing out, and particularly the one with regard to the Minister of Veterans Affairs.

Divorce Bills

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NDP

Frank Howard

New Democratic Party

Mr. Howard:

Mr. Chairman, the oversensitivities of the government demand apology, and I extend it. But I want to say this on the point of order raised by the hon. member for Davenport. If he says that in this house there is another group which at the last moment refused to go along with making some arrangements on this matter, then the minister cannot rise and accuse me of causing all this difficulty. It is the other group that is the cause of it all, if what the hon. member for Davenport says is correct.

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PC

Paul Raymond Martineau (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

The Chairman:

I think we have had quite a fair discussion on this particular point of order and we should get back to the item before the committee, which is clause 1 of the bill. Shall clause 1 carry?

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Some hon. Members:

Agreed.

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NDP

William Arnold Peters

New Democratic Party

Mr. Peters:

I would like to ask the minister one question. Is he not aware of the fact that, while it is true negotiations went on for almost a year, it is not going to be a calamity if we have not had the time to discuss these bills and they therefore do not pass, because did this not happen in 1958 with this government, when these bills were carried over in the other place and reintroduced without any expense being involved.

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April 18, 1962