March 8, 1962

?

Some hon. Members:

You started it.

Topic:   HOUSE OF COMMONS ACT
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   $ 70,500
Permalink
LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill

Liberal

Mr. Pickersgill:

Topic:   HOUSE OF COMMONS ACT
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   $ 70,500
Permalink
PC

James Aloysius McGrath

Progressive Conservative

Mr. McGrath:

You started it.

Topic:   HOUSE OF COMMONS ACT
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   $ 70,500
Permalink
LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill

Liberal

Mr. Pickersgill:

I repeat sir that I commend the speech made by the Prime Minister. I commend everything he has done in this matter. I commend everything done by the Secretary of State for External Affairs and I would like to hear him, in the same unqualified way, pay the same tribute to others in other parts of the house.

Topic:   HOUSE OF COMMONS ACT
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   $ 70,500
Permalink

Item agreed to. DEPARTMENT OF FORESTRY Forest research branch- 635. Operation and maintenance-further amount required, $80,000.


NDP

Douglas Mason Fisher

New Democratic Party

Mr. Fisher:

In the discussion we had on the previous occasion on these estimates, towards the end the minister made a statement which was very much appreciated. I have no quarrel with it, but I made remarks during that discussion to the effect that I had found the forestry profession very confused in so far as its purposes and goals were concerned. Since then I have had some reaction from the foresters whose attention was directed to these remarks, and I want to make some further comments in relation to the forestry profession just to put on record more clearly what I meant.

The country at the present time has four or five forestry schools. Normally forestry is a four-year university course and it produces people who are trained in both the scientific and technical aspects of forestry, and with some experience in the matter of logging on the industry's side of it. The pattern has been that little over half these foresters go to work for the various pulp and paper and lumber companies across the country, with the rest going to work for various government agencies such as the one the estimates for which we are now discussing.

26207-1-1044

Supply-Forestry

There is a tendency on the part of the industrial forester to look upon the government forester with a critical eye, because in most of the provinces his operations are supervised by the government forester. In addition the terms of the leases under which most companies operate follow the regulations and statutes put out by the provincial forestry services. This leads to one kind of a conflict between the two, but a further fact is that in both the provincial forestry services and in the industry itself the professionally trained forester has not as yet made many of the top positions. There still seems to be a preference for the man who comes up through the bookkeeping and business side of the operations to have managerial control, rather than someone who has been specifically trained in forestry.

To hon. members who may feel I am oversimplifying the case I can only suggest that they look very quickly at the large pulp and paper corporations in Canada and if they find two or three foresters-I think H. R. MacMillan is an exception-who have reached the very peak positions I would be very surprised.

In terms of this confusion you have the tension between the government forester and the industrial forester, together with the suspicion that exists in many cases. On top of that you have the general attempt of the forest industries, and I am not blaming them here, to escape as much as possible from the regulations and controls which they have to meet. In doing this through the Canadian forest industries' various associations, they have managed to create a climate of publicity that many people are accepting and yet many professional foresters, who know what they are saying is not exactly right, never object to it. As a consequence, when the foresters themselves get together in their meetings and professional groups, a great deal of time is spent really in discussing nothing but in trying to get away from this.

I want to pick an example of what I mean by the popular progaganda that is put out-I do not mean propaganda in a nasty sense at all-by the large forest companies. I have one here entitled "New sounds in the forest". It is beautifully coloured and illustrated and it is put out by Abitibi Power and Paper Company. I just want to read a few of the sentences from this brochure to indicate why I quarrel with the role of the professional forester at the present time. The first sentence to which I refer reads:

The land cut over this year should have a similar crop 100 years from now.

This is what is ideal, but I wonder whether anyone who has been around the cut overs

Supply-Forestry

in the boreal forest really thinks that information is very accurate. Later on this lovely brochure says:

Except when fires and insect infestations occur, the result of planned cutting is a satisfactory new and natural forest 85 per cent of the time.

I would suggest that Abitibi cannot prove that 85 per cent figure; they cannot even come close to it. I would suggest, on the other hand, that Abitibi cannot be proved wrong on that 85 per cent figure. This is what I am suggesting to the minister he should get his professional foresters working on, because I have heard it from some foresters that cut overs in the boreal forest are coming back in perhaps 65 or 70 per cent of the sites, but in many ways no one is actually sure whether the stocking is adequate. No one has really worked out a policy for the sites when they are not coming back. Almost any forester in the boreal forest will tell you that the best spruces come off the swamps. The black spruce swamps are the source of the very best spruce, and yet that is where the regeneration is most inadequate and that is where you get thousands of acres in our part of the country where five, ten or fifteen years after the cut there is really nothing worth while growing and there is really no black spruce swamp of any kind; yet there is this statement in the brochure that says that 85 per cent of the time a natural forest comes back as a result of planned cutting.

The brochure goes on to indicate that there is a great deal of experimentation taking place in ways of cutting the forest so that they will get better regeneration. I do not know how much experimentation has really taken place in a genuine way. I know there are very many logging techniques being worked out. For example, we are now working on a machine that will walk into the bush, cut the tree, limb it and prepare it for loading on to the truck, all in one operation, doing away with the chain saw and the whole operation of cutting as we now know it in the forest.

These are the kind of statements that are made by these companies.

This is another one that is a real laugh to anyone who has been around a pulpwood limit. I have talked not only to logging managers but to the pulp cutters themselves. The kind of pulp cutters we have in northern Ontario today are not worrying about the small trees, but this is what the Abitibi brochure says:

Trees which are too small to cut are left standing. Cone bearing tops and branches are scattered between skid tracks to provide seed for new growth and protection for the young trees already firmly established.

That is a lovely picture but it is not the actual practice in more than a fraction of the cases. This is not the minister's responsibility,

fMr. Fisher.1

but in the sense that these kind of practices, if they were indulged in widely, are good or bad, it is his responsibility to let us know, not the scale but whether they are worth while. This sounds very good, but it really is not the practice. It certainly is not the practice as I know it on the majority of the Abitibi limits in our area, and they are of considerable size.

Then we get this statement:

Constant effort is being made to preserve the young trees present at the time of cutting and to develop economical logging methods that promote natural reseeding.

Well, I challenge anyone to visit any of the cleared cuttings in the boreal forest and see where a real effort is being made to preserve the young trees. The only way this can be done is to work on the cutters, because they are the people doing the job. I have spent hours watching cutters on pulp and paper limits and I have yet to see them worry about the young underbrush or young trees that are coming up. Their whole incentive is toward production. You cannot blame them for this; that is what they are paid for; the more cords they turn out, the more money they make. Therefore they cannot have top production and worry about the smaller trees or the smaller growth that may make the next forest. This is just not in their minds.

Here again I would appreciate having from the minister's foresters an assessment of the forestry education and approach of the average cutter in this country. One of the other points that is made in the Abitibi brochure is this:

Our target is vigorous young pulpwood stands.

It goes on to say:

However, as trees grow, they face the twin threats of fire and insect damage. Canadians, young and old, should be constantly aware that forest fires, eight times out of ten, are caused by human carelessness. A fire blackened forest is a scar which takes a decade to heal-a century to replace.

This may be very true, but there are a great many suggestions today that we need controlled burning in our forestry practices, and as yet I know of no really large scale studies in Canada by forestry experts to indicate how this can be done practically. The Abitibi brochure concludes with the sentence:

But, nature through protection and wise forest management provides the forest of our future.

I think that nature through protection and wise forest management will provide the forests of the future, but I am very skeptical that management is providing it today. This, it seems to me, is the onus that is upon the minister's foresters to determine the methods by which this can be done.

Topic:   HOUSE OF COMMONS ACT
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   $ 70,500
Permalink
?

Some hon. Members:

Carried.

Topic:   HOUSE OF COMMONS ACT
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   $ 70,500
Permalink
LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill

Liberal

Mr. Pickersgill:

No, Mr. Chairman. I think it is ten o'clock. There are one or two hon. members who have some brief observations to make. I would not anticipate that it will take very long.

Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.

Topic:   HOUSE OF COMMONS ACT
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   $ 70,500
Permalink

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill

Liberal

Mr. Pickersgill:

Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the house leader if he could enlighten us-I think he told us what we were expected to do tomorrow-and give us a preview of next week, particularly the early part of the week.

Topic:   BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Permalink
PC

Gordon Minto Churchill (Minister of Veterans Affairs; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Progressive Conservative Party House Leader)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Churchill:

Tomorrow, Mr. Speaker, we propose starting with Bill No. C-67, which relates to the proposed railway line in the Gaspe peninsula. That has been through the committee and might be completed very quickly. Then we will follow with the supplementary estimates.

I had hoped that we would finish the supplementary estimates this week because we are spending more than the normal time on supplementaries, and there will still be final supplementaries coming before us during this month. But uncertain as to whether or not we will complete the supplementaries tomorrow, I cannot forecast the business for Monday and Tuesday.

If we do not finish the supplementaries we might have to continue with them on Monday, because certain works will come to an end and people will be without pay unless we are able to get these supplementaries approved.

Topic:   BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Permalink

Business of the House At ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order. [The following items were passed In committee of supply]:


DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS


A-Department- 625. Canada's civilian participation as a member of the international commissions for supervision and control in Indo-China-further amount required, $100,000. 626. Gift to commemorate the sesquicentennial anniversary of the independence of the republic of Mexico-further amount required, $2,500. 627. Gift to commemorate the inauguration of 'Plaza Canada' in Buenos Aires, Argentina, $1,100. Other payments to international organizations and programs- 628. Assessments for membership in the international (including commonwealth) organizations that are detailed in the estimates, including authority to pay such assessments in the amounts and in the currencies in which they are levied-further amount required in Canadian dollars, estimated as of January, 1962, $2,400. 629. Purchase and transportation to British Honduras of skim milk powder, canned pork and other supplies for the relief of victims of the hurricane disaster and to authorize reimbursement of ihe agricultural stabilization board in respect of the purchase of such skim milk powder and canned pork, $70,500. Loans, investments and advances- External affairs- 668. To authorize the purchase in the current and subsequent fiscal years of United Nations bonds in an amount of $6,240,000 U.S., notwithstanding that payment may exceed or fall short of the equivalent in Canadian dollars estimated as of January, 1962, which is, $6,493,500.



Friday, March 9, 1962


March 8, 1962