February 28, 1962

L L

William Moore Benidickson

Liberal Labour

Mr. Benidickson:

They have collected more in taxes.

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PC

William Earl Rowe

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Rowe:

Yes. Well, in better times they always do. I merely mentioned that there are other factors which are basic to the preservation of this great resource. When one considers what is used in the pulp and paper mills and in the lumber mills, and what is still used for firewood, it is rather frightening to realize that there is more spruce, jackpine and timber of different species burnt in this country in forest fires and destroyed by fungus and insects than the entire amount used by the pulp and paper industry. Surely, then, this is the angle that should get first priority.

I know it is difficult for the dominion government, our constitution being as it is, to interfere too much with the administration of the departments of lands and forests in the respective provinces, but I may say it should be just about as possible, constitutionally, to do so as it is to interfere with agriculture. I believe we have only touched the edge of what the dominion government could do and should be doing in this respect, and I am glad the trend is toward co-operation with the provinces in this field.

1 believe the government has in the first year, spent $5 million on assisting the different provinces. In addition, $1,250,000 is to be distributed in the different provinces toward the purchase of fire fighting equipment. I hope there could be a working arrangement with the Department of National Defence so that when these major fires take place prompt assistance could be forthcoming. No one who has ever experienced one of these great fires, such as that which happened last year in Newfoundland and those which occasionally happen in northern Ontario-the district to which the hon. member for Port Arthur has referred-can ever forget it. The destruction is simply tragic: To think that we, collectively, the dominion government and the provincial governments, should allow an annual destruction in these rich black forests of more acreage than is used in all the pulp and paper industries in Canada!

We hear people worrying about the amount of timber that has been consumed by the pulp and paper industries. I was glad to hear the hon. member for Port Arthur compliment the United States companies who

have subsidiaries here in Canada. I know most of these companies very well-Kimberly-Clark and many others he has mentioned. I have no brief for any particular company, but I cannot think the hon. member is entirely impartial when he criticizes the company in his own district-the Abitibi company-for not being as up to date in every respect, particularly in connection with research, as any of the companies to which he referred. I think that there are many fine companies in the country, and one of the finest is the great Abitibi company which, of course, gives employment to many people. It is fair in its treatment of labour, as the Great Lakes Company and other companies have been, and I think Kimberly-Clark and its subsidiaries have carried out a great deal of research and are to be complimented for it. However, from the nature of this great industry and of the constitutional responsibility shared by the different governments, provincial and dominion, it is difficult to see how the dominion government can fit in today and exert as much influence as the industry might warrant.

Nevertheless I do believe that a great deal more could and should be done in co-operation between the federal and the provincial departments. I compliment the minister on the steps which have been taken along this line and I hope they may continue. I trust that more money will be spent in this direction, if only on roads connecting the forests of the different provinces because, after all, there is no better way to lay the basis of a sound protection against fire, fungi and insects than to have access roads through these great timber areas.

People speak about the pulp and paper industries and the amount of timber they use. They accuse them of cutting down the trees and ravaging the forests, thinking about nothing but profits. May I remind the committee that the pulp and paper industry is, generally speaking, across Canada, only earning between 3 and 5 per cent on the money it has invested? As I say, I have no brief for the Abitibi company and I mention it because it is a company with which I have no connection; in fact it might be said I was competitive with it. The hon. member was worrying about the men who are working for that company and about the other pulp and paper workers and bushworkers in Canada. I would remind him that they are among the highest paid workers in the world. I notice the hon. member did not say anything about the 33,000 shareholders, 75 per cent of whom are small shareholders. In fact, over half the shareholders might well be widows, retired school teachers, retired professional people, or retired members of parliament, even, who might have a few dollars invested. I would

venture to say that the holdings are a great deal smaller on an average than the amount of investment it takes to employ one labouring man.

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NDP

Douglas Mason Fisher

New Democratic Party

Mr. Fisher:

Would the hon. member permit a question? Is he assuming from my remarks that I was critical of the Abitibi company, aside from the research program?

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PC

William Earl Rowe

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Rowe:

No.

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NDP

Douglas Mason Fisher

New Democratic Party

Mr. Fisher:

That was what I was criticising in connection with Abitibi and I should like to make the point clear.

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PC

William Earl Rowe

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Rowe:

I understand. I only mentioned the Abitibi company as an example. I might well have taken the whole industry. I am in no way inferring that the hon. member was critical of the company's attitude either to the men or to the shareholders, except that he did mention it was less efficient in some respects, with regard to research and so on, than some of its United States competitors.

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NDP

Douglas Mason Fisher

New Democratic Party

Mr. Fisher:

My comments were specifically related to research. I am the first to recognize that among the pulp and paper companies the Abitibi company for various reasons is the most popular company to work for.

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PC

William Earl Rowe

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Rowe:

I am glad to hear the hon. member's opinion on that, though I might be prepared to offer him an argument on it. But I am glad he has cleared up his position in respect of the Abitibi company. I am speaking in generalities. I do not want the hon. member-

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NDP

Douglas Mason Fisher

New Democratic Party

Mr. Fisher:

I am not scared of the president of Abitibi, Mr. Ambridge; but I am not going around lambasting him either.

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PC

William Earl Rowe

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Rowe:

I know Mr. Ambridge is not scared of you, either.

It takes much work and effort to build up a great industry such as the pulp and paper industry and again I compliment the government on the steps they have taken to assist in this direction. I hope these efforts will be given encouragement by all hon. members in the future.

I can well recall a time in this parliament when practically nothing was spent by the federal government on the great pulp and paper industry, despite the revenue which came into the coffers of the dominion government for so many years. Again I suggest there is tremendous research work to be carried out with reference to destruction caused by insects, fungi and fire. So far as reforestation is concerned, practically every important company in Canada is doing a great deal. The hon. member for Port Arthur shakes his head but I should like to tell him that

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independent of what any of the companies may be doing there is a great misconception with regard to what can be achieved by assisting in reforestation. I have tramped through the bush a good many times over the years in which I was more closely interested in and responsible for this big industry. I have seen areas which will not have on them, it is true, for fifty years after it is cut down, wood which is fit to cut again. However, in some areas I myself have counted ten times as many little spruce growing up as spruce trees that were cut down. The most advanced and most educated silviculture scientists today, while they differ a great deal, believe that our general natural reproduction, if it is protected from fire, will amount to between 85 per cent and 90 per cent generally right across the board.

Trees are just like other products that grow. A few years ago some hon. members asked about this matter. I remember one hon. member asked why the pulp and paper industries and the lumber industry should be allowed to go into the forests and cut them down. I might ask some of my friends from western Canada a similar question. When they have miles of beautiful golden wheat that looks so beautiful from the aeroplane or from the train, why cut it down when it is ripe and ready to harvest? It is cut because the next crop will come on. Our forest industry is somewhat the same. When the trees are ready to cut and there is a market for them, they should be cut. They should be taken as a crop. The difference is that it takes from 60 to 70 years to grow a spruce tree and it probably takes fewer months to grow a crop of wheat, probably six months.

On the other hand, as has been mentioned, research is now being carried out no doubt by the companies. Lowering the costs of production is of vital importance in ever growing competition throughout the world. That is something that is always changing. The competition today in the world is entirely different from what it was a few years ago. There is competition from the Scandinavian countries and, though not as well known, from Russia. I have heard it said that there is not much competition from Russia because their streams run the wrong way and that when they freeze up it is impossible to drive. That is all very fine. However, I have seen some of the most beautiful pulpwood in the world come in at different seasons of the year from Russia in years past for far less than our cost of production. It was better trimmed and peeled and was in beautiful shape. Hence, we have competition in that regard. Any research that can be done in order to cheapen production is all to the good.

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I know that a few years ago many companies had three times as many men in the bush as they have now. Many companies had as many as 1,000 teams and some of them had 2,000 teams of horses drawing out pulp-wood, or skidding, which the hon. member mentioned this afternoon. Now some of the same companies have not any horses at all and one third the number of men are moving out the wood. The same thing is happening in general automation, as a result of mechanical advancement, in agriculture and other basic industries.

The hon. member mentioned chain saws. I can remember when the boast used to be made that if a man was strong enough he could, with a bucksaw, cut three cords to four cords of wood a day. Now two smart fellows going through university can take a chain saw and, as my hon. friend knows, can sometimes produce as many as 30 cords a day. Such is the march of progress.

I hope that we shall have a new look at the possibilities of protecting these great virgin forests. We have tremendous forest resources in this country. We are blessed with forest resources such as few other countries have ever been blessed with. The hon. member suggests that perhaps we are cutting too much spruce. May I suggest that spruce will grow and will replenish itself just the same as any other trees do. Chemical science is now finding out that just as good paper can be made from many other sources of wood. A few years ago they did not believe that could be done at all. Some assert that in a few years to come many other species of hardwoods will be used just about as widely as spruce is used at the present time.

Again I wish to compliment this government on the fact that, along with the other things they have done, they have a forward look with regard to the forest industry. I may say that at the present time I think they are looking as far into it as they feel it is constitutionally possible in order to assist this great industry to perpetuate itself and to protect it from fire, insects, fungi and so on. May I suggest that I believe they are on the right road, in the first place with respect to access roads to these regions. We have virgin forests that are not accessible to the present mills. In the next quarter of a century these forests will no doubt have mills in their midst. In the meantime, with access roads from one province to another into these districts in order to protect them when the forests are struck by lightning and fires are started or are infested with fungi, budworms and other insects which destroy the trees, these forests can be accessible through these roads.

While I personally think we have waited a long time to play the proper part in cooperating with the provinces in assisting the forest industry, again I wish to compliment the government for going as far as they have gone in the plans they have for greater support of and co-operation with the provinces in the future. I leave this thought with you, Mr. Chairman. I believe the features they are emphasizing are not so much the research that has been done, as mentioned by the hon. member for Port Arthur, in telling the companies how to handle their labour, how to reduce their costs or, in other words on the side of economics-I believe that is their responsibility-but are more in the direction of protection of the virgin forests in the years that are ahead from fire, insects and other destructive forces.

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PC

Hugh John Flemming (Minister of Forestry)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Flemming (Royal):

At this stage, Mr. Chairman, and before attempting to make any observations in connection with the remarks which have been made by the hon. member for Port Arthur and by the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe, I think it would be of interest if I were to give the particulars as to just where this $80,000 which is at present before us for consideration is being spent. I am sure the Minister of Labour would be interested. It is being spent in connection with the winters work program.

I will give to the committee briefly the general location and the general description of what is being done with the funds hon. members are being asked to vote. In Alberta, at Kananaskis forest experiment station, for cutting rights of way for access roads, clearing existing roads and boundary lines, we are asking for something over $6,200, furnishing 25 man-months of labour. In Manitoba, at the Riding Mountain forest experimental area, for stand improvement cuttings to release young white spruce for aspen overstorey, we are asking for a matter of $2,000. At Petawawa forest experiment station, for cutting rights of way for access roads, clearing boundary lines and plantation fire-guards, clearing and preparing land for planting experimental work, various stand improvement cuttings and thinnings, we are asking for a total of $54,350. In Quebec, at Valcartier forest experiment station, for cutting rights of way for access roads, clearing existing roads and boundary lines, we are asking for a matter of $5,450. The next is the Acadia forest experiment station near Fredericton, New Brunswick, constructing access roads, clearing boundary lines and areas for planting, various stand improvements, cuttings and thinnings, a total of $14,000. There is also an additional amount with respect to

the forest at camp Gagetown. The total comes to the $80,000 requested in the item now under consideration.

It was with great interest, Mr. Chairman, that I listened to the remarks of the hon. member for Port Arthur. I know that he comes from a part of Canada which is noted for the fact that the pulp and paper industry, the forest products industry, if you like, plays such an important role in the general well-being of the area. He has indicated to my satisfaction by his observations that he has given the matter a good deal of careful consideration and has devoted considerable time to a study of the various problems of research and the proper methods or proper activities that should be carried on to improve the forests so that this absolutely renewable resource will be maintained in perpetuity. I appreciate his various observations. I cannot, and neither do I think he would expect that I would attempt to solve all the problems about which he has expressed some misgivings. I assure him and every hon. member that we have a fine group of very capable people in the Department of Forestry who are available to every member of the house and every Canadian citizen for the furnishing of any information that will seem to contribute toward the general well-being of every citizen of our country.

The hon. member has indicated that he has read the report of the resources for tomorrow conference and has also read some of the speeches made by one of the economists in the department, including one speech made in Minneapolis, and that this has aroused within his mind a certain degree of confusion. I am sure he would be the first to agree that undoubtedly in the field of experimentation, and to some degree at least that is what research is, we will always continue to have a certain degree of confusion because if we do not have it, research will not be necessary at all. I assure him that I have heard very capable people argue from diametrically opposite points of view with respect to a question concerning forestry practice. The two gentlemen I have in mind at the moment were very successful in their particular field of endeavour, forestry, but they had absolutely opposite views with respect to research and with respect to methods and the extent to which cutting should be carried on.

In connection with my own business activities, when I was a little younger I remember quite well one man who I believe loved every tree on a particular lot to such an extent that we were never able to persuade him to sell us the stumpage from the lot. Finally, however, he decided to do so but he

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was very stringent in laying down the conditions under which we were to operate. Only trees of a minimum certain size and larger on the stump were to be cut and we were to cut them very low. He imposed all these conditions, which seemed to be a very proper attitude for him to take. We carried out the operation and if we hesitated to follow his conditions he saw to it that we did. We carried out his directions to the letter. The logs were cut in the fall. During the following winter there was a terrific windstorm and the trees he had forced us to leave, expecting that they would grow, become larger and be more valuable, so that he could go out and pat them almost every morning, were all blown down.

This may seem to be a somewhat uninteresting little story, Mr. Chairman, but I mention it to indicate that I do not think there is complete unanimity-in fact, quite the opposite-among all foresters and all operators with respect to the manner in which forests should be handled and cut.

I should like to come back for a moment to the field of research. I am the first to acknowledge frankly that my experience in research is comparatively recent. My research was pretty much in the field of practical forestry from the point of view of one who went into the woods at a very early age and worked there for a good portion of his life. Research, both basic and applied, was something in which I had not had too much experience beyond reading articles in magazines and periodicals.

I do think, however, that we might very well consider that we are not going to get all the answers quickly with respect to the problem of the continuation of our forest resources from year to year, but I believe that we are making progress. I believe that we are finding out things every day that we did not know before. I believe that we are getting information concerning the forests and forest management.

At the present time a conference of forest officials from all over Canada is going on in Ottawa, and I was greatly interested in listening to the remarks of the deputy minister when he addressed these people last Monday morning. He spoke to them about the problems of forest management. Then he said, "In connection with your investigation of proper methods of forest management, remember that you should always keep in mind forest management in the broadest sense of the word and it starts with three p's". He was not referring to any front-bench members of the opposition whose names start with "P" but rather to production, protection and processing. He said that forest management in its best and broadest sense

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is needed to stimulate these three desirable results, and that is what will contribute a great deal to the general well-being of all our people and the continuation of the industry.

The hon. member for Port Arthur speaks of forest economics. I agree that it would be folly for parliament to vote money for the purpose of stimulating the production of species of trees for which there is no market or which some other country, by virtue of its more favourable situation with respect to production, might be able to produce at a much lower price. We have to acknowledge that in this day and age we are living more and more in one world than ever before, and every day that goes by we find that this is more the case. Whether or not we like it, we do face world competition. Therefore I should like to say to the hon. member for Port Arthur that I believe it is necessary that the economics be studied quite carefully. We must address ourselves to the production of the type of trees which we can produce with some natural advantages and which will be of a sufficiently superior quality that we will not only be able to hold our own but will have an advantage in the markets of the world.

I am sure he would also be the first to acknowledge that in a free country the officials who devote their time to studying certain aspects of forestry such as the economics of it may express opinions during a public address or anything of that nature which might be construed as not being final. I do not believe this is unnatural. I think it is difficult, if not impossible, to arrive at a conclusion with respect to everything. The fact that our aims are brought out into the light, the difficulties presented; the fact that the end result for which we are striving is mentioned, seems to me contributes something to our general knowledge and are somewhat thought-provoking in their application.

I do not believe the hon. member would be too critical of the fact that a conclusion was not reached with respect to the various problems that were mentioned by the gentleman from our department who spoke at the international conference in Minneapolis. In so far as the matter of applied research versus basic research is concerned, how much time should a department devote to basic research? How much time and how much money should the department spend on something that is going to be of benefit 25 or 30 years hence? The hon. member for Port Arthur pointed out that the department used money to tell the operators how to skid logs. I must confess that I cannot become very enthusiastic about that myself. However, I do believe there is

a question to be determined there. I would be the first to acknowledge that I am not certain just what the answer is. I cannot contribute too much to it by way of definition.

I will say, however, to all hon. members that one does not easily forget the habits of a lifetime. In the setting up of the Department of Forestry, I seemed to have the idea that I wanted to refrain from duplicating, at great expense, something which already existed, perhaps in other departments or perhaps in the provinces. If, in the opinion of some hon. members we have been slow, I assure you it is not because of any lack of desire to make progress and contribute something to the well-being of all Canadians, but it is due to the fact we have always had to count the cost of everything before we undertook it. I believe we are nicely on the way, and we are making progress. I think there are many things we are determining from day to day that will be of benefit to the country. In the study of silvicultural methods, forest management and so on, to which I referred in general terms, I think we are making headway.

The hon. member for Port Arthur mentioned the matter of black spruce. Those of us who have been in the lumber business know-and I can see he has given the matter considerable study-that black spruce is a wood of considerable density. We have pulp-mills from Ontario and Quebec coming to New Brunswick looking for black spruce of high density. During the hon. member's remarks he mentioned that today chemists could apply to any kind of wood a chemical treatment that would produce an equally satisfactory basic raw material. But, Mr. Chairman, let me just mention one point, and this goes back to economics again: I am told by the pulp and paper people that a high density spruce will produce 20 or 25 per cent more pounds, more weight, than will the balsam fir, for instance, which we have all over Canada.

To what does this all add up? It simply adds up to this, that the pulp and paper industry, the lumber industry and other industries based on the forests are somewhat complex. However, we are still making progress. Things are being improved. I am one of those who measure improvement by the fact that companies engaged in business are making profit. I am one of those who thinks that profits make good times. I am one of those who believe these extra profits that people have, as individuals and as corporations, all lead to greater expansion and that leads to good times. I am a firm believer in profits. I agree, generally, with the hon. gentleman's observations in connection with

the distribution of these profits. I believe that is a matter which is, generally speaking, taken care of.

I was very much impressed by the remarks of the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe. He mentioned that he had been associated with the industry for a long time and had found that it was possible to stimulate business, to keep it going and do the things that would contribute to expansion. During his remarks the hon. member for Fort William used the expression-Port Arthur, I should have said. I was last spring on a visit to Fort William, and I want to say at this time that the hon. member for Fort William was extremely kind to me. He certainly showed me around the town. I regret the fact that I was not able to call on the hon. member for Port Arthur. I made some inquiries, but he was not in the city at that time.

The hon. member used the expression that we should address ourselves to the general proposition that we should crystallize our problems. In my opinion, that is fine as an objective and we should all strive towards it. I do think it is going to take a prolonged time before we crystallize all problems. We are working towards that end and I am sure that, in his capacity, he is working towards that end also. But I am also sure that everybody within the sound of my voice in this chamber is working towards that end, to crystallize all our problems; but I doubt if we shall achieve that objective in our lifetime. However, it will be a lot of fun trying. That is really what we will get out of life. What we will get is this joy of working and joy of trying, with sometimes a great sense of satisfaction in having achieved something. I am sure that is what we are all striving to accomplish.

I appreciate the comments which have been made in connection with the forestry department and I assure all hon. members that if at any time there seems to be any additional information which they do not want to bring publicly to my attention in this chamber, they would be very welcome to visit the department to the see the things that are being done and get a better view of the general objectives of all the capable staff connected with it.

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LIB

Hédard-J. Robichaud

Liberal

Mr. Robichaud:

As has been stated this $80,000 is to provide a further amount for the operation and maintenance of the forestry research branch of the forestry department. The minister has just explained the purposes for which it is required. It is to provide certain winter works programs in different provinces, which will mean about $57,000 in salaries and wages.

We all know that research in forestry has a different purpose. First of all it is aimed

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at protecting our forests, increasing production and, at the same time, helping in the processing of our forestry products. In doing this it also helps the general economy. It improves conditions throughout the country, but it must also provide some assistance, some relief, to those who are more closely connected with the industry.

We understand the Minister of Forestry has some practical interest and very practical experience in this field, but I would like to refer very briefly to one class of people who are interested in forestry, the small farmers who have woodlots of their own and who must derive a living from their woodlots. I am sure the Minister of Forestry is aware of the statement made by the Prime Minister at Rimouski on February 26, 1958, when he stated that a Conservative government would introduce to parliament a new agricultural price support to provide farmers with a higher income. At that time he suggested that wood might also be brought under the protection of subsidies. The Prime Minister's own words were taken down and reported in the Toronto daily Star of February 27, 1958, as follows:

I hope, and representations have been made, that the advisory committee and the stabilization board (which will administer the act) will give consideration to including farmer-produced woods so they will know the lowest prices they will receive a year in advance.

I am sure the Minister of Forestry knows what the Prime Minister meant when he made that statement.

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L L

William Moore Benidickson

Liberal Labour

Mr. Benidickson:

The northern Ontario farmers thought that.

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LIB

Hédard-J. Robichaud

Liberal

Mr. Robichaud:

A few minutes ago the hon. member for Port Arthur said the pulpwood companies never had it so good. I am not in a position to discuss that statement at this time, but if such is a fact, I would like the Minister of Forestry to tell us why farmer owners of woodlots in New Brunswick have to be satisfied with $9 to $11 per cord for their pulpwood if their wood is so good for pulp products. Of course the Minister of Forestry may say this is a provincial matter. Probably he would be right in saying so but, if such is the case, then I would like an explanation of the statement made by the Prime Minister in Rimouski to the effect that the stabilization board was prepared to give consideration to including farmer-produced woods so that they would know a year in advance the lowest prices they would receive.

We know that up to the present time pulpwood is not one of the nine products which come under prices support, but we also know that the act gave the prices stabilization board wide powers to include other commodities. It

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would be interesting to know what the Minister of Forestry is doing to help that class of farmers who need assistance.

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NDP

Frank Howard

New Democratic Party

Mr. Howard:

This is an extremely important item even though the amount of money is only $80,000. It is important because of the effect which it could have on our forest industry. I say this because of a degree of personal background in the industry itself in British Columbia, and also because it is estimated that 30 to 40 per cent of the economy of British Columbia rests upon the forest industry, that is, the all inclusive forest industry, the sawmill industry, pulp and paper, logging and the like.

I can appreciate the expression used by the Minister of Forestry to the effect that he did not want to rush full-scale into a huge program of expenditures until there was some assurance that there would not be duplication and that it would be beneficial. What we want to ensure in the field of research, whether it be in forestry or anything else, is that it be done on a regular and planned basis. It would be detrimental to the effectiveness of a research program if the appropriations for it were handled on a sort of hit and miss, feast or famine basis, fluctuating from one year to the next depending upon the sharpness of the red or blue pencil which the Minister of Finance uses. This is especially so in the field1 of so-called pure research as differentiated from applied research. There must be some degree of assuredness of a fairly long period of time, and especially is this so in forestry, so that research projects may be carried on to their conclusion.

We used to have a pretty disgraceful situation in the lumber business in British Columbia when the industry itself did not particularly care whether any trees grew the following year, or 10 years from the time they were logging. In British Columbia there was a policy of clear cutting areas, usually referred to as a policy of cut out and get out. Of course that does not exist any more.

Over the years we have got more and more into the field1 of forestry management, developing sustained yield programs both by way of tenure with private industry and by the establishment of working circles and areas within which there is a limit to the amount of timber that can be cut and logged over a certain period of time. This sustained yield program and concept being relatively new, it brings with it-and certainly this is the view of management operating under what were originally the forestry management licences- some rather complex problems researchwise. It brings out the attempt to understand what is going to happen 50 or 60 years from now or at the conclusion of the rotation period, whatever the period of years might be.

This is something which cannot be entirely dealt with by the research facilities of the forest service in British Columbia, or in any other province for that matter. This, of course, is one of the reasons for the establishment of a federal Department of Forestry, the function of which is to work with the various forest services which exist in the provinces so that these branches will function on a co-ordinating, co-operative basis rather than going in different directions.

It is also a specific problem that I think the federal Department of Forestry should be working toward, and undoubtedly it has started to do this. It should be a matter of specific concern over a long period of time, thus making it possible to estimate how much money might be required in the future for the particular type of research program necessary to deal with the complications and difficulties arising out of our sustained yield or forestry management system in British Columbia. I am sure this is also applicable to other provinces.

I think this sort of thing presupposes that there is a large degree of knowledge available; that it really is the application of that knowledge to a particular problem which is important, and then the problem will be overcome. However, I do not think it is as simple as that. Without trying to put words into the mouth of the hon. member for Port Arthur, I think the idea he was seeking to leave with the committee was that, with so many imponderables, we have to attempt as best we can to ensure that if for the sake of argument, we have a 50, 60 or 70 year rotation period, and 50 or 60 years from now we are going to come back and re-log the area we are logging today, the growth will be at its height at that time so that the combination of each yearly increment of wood will be at the limit. We want to ensure that insect infestations, fungi and the like are kept to a minimum and do not interfere with the growth of that particular stand, and that when it is time to log the area we have the best possible type of wood which is fungus and disease free.

I think in British Columbia this is perhaps as important a question as any, research-wise, with which we should be concerned. This applies to the province in the way of research work undertaken by the forest service, and research work by the industry and the federal Department of Forestry.

In the field of research by private industry I think we must realize, without in any way wishing to be misinterpreted-and I hope nobody misinterprets this as being unkind to industry or to any body else-that the motivating factor behind carrying out pure or

applied research is an economic one. I think we find that the research engaged in by industry is directed more toward a greater utilization of the product, less breakage and the like, so that the product which comes out of the mill contains the greatest volume of wood, and waste, and the like, is cut to the minimum. Private industry is concerned in keeping the cost of producing the unit of wood, or pulp or paper, whatever it is, to a minimum. This is the prime field of research in which private industry becomes involved.

Unfortunately we have found that the forest service in British Columbia has in years past not engaged to the extent it should have in the field of research. If I may be permitted, Mr. Chairman, I should like to read one or two brief quotations from the report of the royal commission on the forest resources of British Columbia. This royal commission was headed by the late Chief Justice Gordon McGregor Sloan and the report was published in 1956. The report deals with the question of the research activities of the forest service, and I should like to quote from volume 2, page 559. The late Chief Justice says this:

The type of study for which this division is staffed and equipped may be defined as applied research; that is, the application of known principles or procedures to local conditions to which the specific reactions can only be determined by direct experimentation and observation.

Then he goes on:

Research for the sake of knowledge itself and without a practical objective cannot be undertaken with the limited staff and facilities presently available.

Throughout the report there are references by the late Chief Justice to this question of research. Evidence was given by Dr. Orchard, the deputy minister of lands and forests, and other people, to the effect that (1) research is without question one of the most important aspects of a proper forestry program; (2) the provincial forest service had unfortunately up until the time of the commission's report not had sufficient funds at its disposal to deal with this particular question, and in some fields engaged in practically no research whatsoever.

This matter was mentioned by the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe; that is, the fields of insect infestation and diseases. I think this should be one field wherein we should concern ourselves to a very great extent. We all know that the spraying of forests with insecticides can have, and has had in the past, a beneficial effect upon the forest because it destroys certain types of insects which have been infesting particular areas, but it has a detrimental effect upon the fisheries in that area. There is this great conflict of social and

Supply-Forestry

economic interests as between fisheries resources on the one hand, which are detrimentally affected by forest spraying programs, and the forest resources on the other hand, which are beneficially affected by the same program.

I know that a great deal of research has been undertaken in this field by the Department of Fisheries and some beneficial results have been achieved to the point where it is possible to dilute a certain type of insecticide to a degree which will give maximum forestry benefits and minimum detrimental effects to the fisheries. Unfortunately the problem still exists inasmuch as in British Columbia, at least up until four or five years ago according to the report of the royal commission, the money was not available to carry out a proper, thorough and effective type of research in this field.

This is a field in which the federal Department of Forestry can profitably become engaged and be of very great benefit to the industry, to the people who work in it and to the economies of the provinces concerned. The minister indicated that he is going slowly, and understandably so, to ensure that the research programs being put into effect are not being duplicated by other services or departments. The minister said his department is feeling its way in this field and progress is being made. I hope this provision means that in the years to come there will be a large increase in the sums made available for this and similar purposes-I am not restricting this comment to the vote we are considering at the moment, which is supplemental; I have in mind the main estimates, which amounted last year to a little less than $2 million. I would hope that as a result of the interest shown by the minister and the studies which are going on at the moment there will be a large increase in the funds made available for this field so that the foresters and the people working in the research branch of the federal department can become involved in questions of pure research to the fullest possible extent. My own view is that it should be possible to take such items as the clearing of rights of way, which is going on under this vote of $80,000, the effects of cutting and pruning and the like, and place them under a separate item for separate consideration because, to me, these are two separate branches of endeavour. One involves pure research and the other the question of the work itself.

As the minister has explained, the work provided for in this vote was not done primarily for research purposes but to provide winter work to assist somewhat in bolstering the economy of this country. If we could

Supply-Forestry

make this distinction between the two different types of activity I do not think any confusion would arise about the purpose of the work being done by the research branch of the Department of Forestry. I do not think there is confusion about the approach we might be making in the provision of research, but I think at the present time there is confusion about the end which is sought by the research branch of the department.

I have nothing further to say at this time. I note that this a supplementary estimate, and it is kind of the committee to be so courteous as to allow not only myself but other members who have participated in the debate to stretch their remarks perhaps beyond the strict confines of the vote now under consideration.

Topic:   OLD AGE SECURITY
Subtopic:   WINNIPEG
Sub-subtopic:   INCREASED ROOM AND BOARD CHARGES TO PENSIONERS
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LIB

Chesley William Carter

Liberal

Mr. Carter:

We have had a most useful and interesting debate on this item. Although the amount involved is relatively small, the subject is an important one. I think that when there is a limited amount of money available for research it is wise that we should establish priorities. I think everyone will agree with the hon. member for Dufferin-Simcoe that priority should be given to the elimination of the wastage of our forest resources by fire, insects and disease. Next to that, I hope, will come some research which will enable us to reap the harvest of mature trees while they are still marketable and before they become rotten and useless windfalls which is the case to a large extent in the forests of my own province.

Forestry is, of course, a most important industry in Newfoundland because timber is perhaps the most important prop in our economy. We already have two papermills and we hope arrangements can be worked out to support another. I should like to bring the minister's attention to another area of research which has not been mentioned and which, perhaps, is not of great interest to the paper industry. The area of research I have in mind, and one which is beyond the resources of the provincial authorities, is the question of forestry and reforestation as a means of soil conservation and soil formation. This question is of tremendous importance to my own riding. Hon. members will understand that most of the settlers in my riding as well as in most of the coastal settlements of my province were settled two or three hundred years ago. The early settlers, our forefathers, knew nothing about the importance of conservation measures or even about the relationship between the preservation of trees and the preservation of the soil. Because of this lack of knowledge they cut down the nearest wood to them to build

their houses, their boats, their flakes for drying fish and their fuel. As a result there was tremendous erosion of soil all along our coast line.

The provincial government realizes the importance of woodlots and the supply of wood to the fishermen. It set out a limit on crown lands-a limit three miles from the coast line-within which timber would be available to supply the needs of our fishermen. But, as I have indicated, not only have these limits been denuded but the soil itself has deteriorated to a great extent. The situation thus created is one which deserves attention and we should consider whether it is possible to develop a type of tree capable of repopulating this area and at the same time starting a process of soil formation.

This little limit was of great importance to the small mill owners in my riding and represented an important factor in the economic life of these communities. I hope the minister will find it possible to give some attention to the problem which I have outlined although I recognize it may not appear to be a great one compared with the size of the pulp and paper industry.

May I call it five o'clock?

Mr. Pallet!: All day on one item of supplementary estimates.

Item stands.

Progress reported.

Topic:   OLD AGE SECURITY
Subtopic:   WINNIPEG
Sub-subtopic:   INCREASED ROOM AND BOARD CHARGES TO PENSIONERS
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PC

Paul Raymond Martineau (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

It being five o'clock the house will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper, namely, notices of motion and public bills.

Topic:   OLD AGE SECURITY
Subtopic:   WINNIPEG
Sub-subtopic:   INCREASED ROOM AND BOARD CHARGES TO PENSIONERS
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ADVERTISING

REQUEST FOR ACTION TO PREVENT DISTRIBUTION OF MISLEADING INFORMATION

PC

John Chester MacRae

Progressive Conservative

Mr. J. C. MacRae (York-Sunbury) moved:

That a special committee be appointed to carry out a survey of all aspects of commercial advertising on Canadian television and radio, in certain newspapers and other fields of mass communication, for the purpose of recommending what steps, if any, should be taken to prevent the distribution of fraudulent and misleading advertising to Canadian consumers;

That the said committee consist of fifteen members to be named at a later date, nine of whom shall constitute a quorum;

That the said committee be empowered to send for persons, papers and records; to sit while the house is sitting; to report from time to time; and to print such papers and evidence from day to day as may be ordered by the committee and that standing order 66 be suspended in relation thereto.

He said: Mr. Speaker, while the majority of advertisers, manufacturers and retailers are completely and entirely ethical in this country,

there are still far too many who are selling rubbish by false suggestion, by half-truths, and by words carefully chosen to mean nothing when they are challenged in a court of law. If, for example, we take an old magazine, let us say one of 50 years or so ago, the advertisements in them seem ridiculous to us; I refer to the advertisements and the claims that are made therein. However, somehow or other, we do not seem to feel this way about a current magazine, a television commercial or a radio spot. Many of them are just an insult to our intelligence.

In the dark ages of the art, advertising literally got away with murder. According to history, it was not unknown for an advertiser to exploit a nostrum offering to stop a baby's crying. Apparently that claim was valid for, after swallowing certain of these concoctions, some babies never cried again. Various rugged individuals were induced by advertising to search for symptoms of dire diseases. Sick folks were persuaded to trifle with major maladies. Consumers were educated to consume nonsensical compounds or deadly poisons or habit forming drugs.

Then, as now, the bulk of Canadian business was sound and reputable. Interspersed were the pirates. Some of these freebooters used advertising to further outrageous exploitation of their victims. Such advertising ran all the way from murder, manslaughter and other crimes through felony and misdemeanor to misrepresentation and misleading tricks. However, actually these old ruffians became playful at times. There is the legendary figure of the advertiser who offered at some alluring price "complete sewing machine, all charges prepaid" for $3.95. When the victim received an envelope in return for his money, if he did not open it very carefully he got stuck a second time, for in the envelope was a needle. That was the complete sewing machine.

When business became slack, it was stimulated by fresh offers. If legend is correct, there was the advertising of "Beautifully framed: Genuine steel engraving of Queen Victoria for only a dollar." What the sucker in this case received was a postage stamp. It was a steel engraving; it was Queen Victoria, but the one who got beautifully framed was the purchaser himself. I think perhaps I may be pardoned if I mention another illustration. We all know the old story. Years ago there was advertised a complete killer of potato bugs for $1. It was stated that if you sent $1 in you would get the necessary ingredients to kill all the potato bugs in a 10-acre field. What you received when the parcel came were two blocks of wood with the instructions that, of course, if you placed a potato bug between the two blocks, they

Request jor Commercial Advertising Survey certainly would kill that potato bug and all the rest, as well. That is an old story and it is supposedly true.

Today the majority of advertisers-and I cannot stress this enough-are high grade organizations of responsibility and integrity. In its lower fringes, however, advertising is still smeared with much that is definitely unfriendly to consumers. Periodically the shysters get too bold. There are "crime waves" in advertising as there are in other activities. Fraudulent and misleading advertising shatters the public's confidence in publicity. Consumers then become less responsive to all advertising. Apparently there will long be a continued need for clean-up campaigns to give the truth-in-advertising movement another forward surge. Fortunately, much of the ground thus gained is held. The long pull trend of advertising honesty appears to be gradually upward. Therefore, a discussion of misrepresentation in advertising should not -and I hope that my remarks will make this clear-smear advertising as a whole. Consumers can help both themselves and reputable business by continuing to use their influence against shysters.

Today in this country one of the most active groups is the Canadian association of consumers, a group of women who are banded together across all of Canada, and who are trying to protect the consumer in so many different ways. I have had a number of discussions with their president, Mrs. Plumptre, here in Ottawa, and others who have pointed out various attempts by advertisers to mislead.

Topic:   ADVERTISING
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR ACTION TO PREVENT DISTRIBUTION OF MISLEADING INFORMATION
Permalink

February 28, 1962