January 31, 1958

CCF

Thomas Speakman Barnett

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Barneff:

I understood the minister to say that the amount of the grant varies from school to school according to its location?

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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

That is correct, in accordance with the different costs as they vary between geographic locations of the schools. In order not to mislead the committee I should say that the system of per capita grants is now under review.

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?

Some hon. Members:

Carried.

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CCF

Thomas Speakman Barnett

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Barnett:

No, Mr. Chairman. I have not been making any speeches. I have a few simple questions to ask the minister on this point. Am I correct in understanding that the entire cost of operating the schools for the

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration

purposes which the minister enumerated is intended to be covered by the amount of the per capita grants or are the schools expected to find other sources of revenue?

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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

For the purposes I have

enumerated the costs are expected to be covered by the per capita grants. I think that in my rapid reading, in giving the previous answer, I omitted the item "salaries of teachers for church-owned schools". Thus, where there is a church-owned school, the salaries of teachers are provided under the per capita grant.

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?

Some hon. Members:

Ten o'clock.

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?

Mr, Barnett:

Some hon. members are suggesting that 1 call it ten o'clock, Mr. Chairman.

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LIB

Lionel Chevrier (Official Opposition House Leader; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Chevrier:

Mr. Chairman, in order to facilitate the passage of some of the estimates of my hon. friend, we on this side of the house, subject of course to the approval of other hon. gentlemen, would be willing to sit for a few minutes after ten o'clock.

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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

Mr. Chairman, out of respect for the staff who are working these long hours, I would suggest that if we continue to sit we do so for only a few minutes.

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LIB
CCF

Thomas Speakman Barnett

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Barnett:

If I am the only member desiring to raise the point under this item I am willing to carry on. What I have in mind to ask would take only a few minutes.

I should like to ask the minister whether in submitting estimates to the department of the amount required under this per capita grant system the schools submit to the department for approval the salaries they propose to pay to such people as cooks and operating staff in the schools. Does the department have a "say" with regard to what those wages should be, what hours of work should be worked and so on, or do these matters lie exclusively within the jurisdiction of the management of the schools?

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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

I am informed we do not go into the matter in that way. The authorities tell us the actual salaries they pay, and we accept their word for it, subject to general overall discussions. We do not enter into detailed supervision of the administration. We are not the employers in that sense.

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CCF

Thomas Speakman Barnett

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Barnett:

The reason I raise this question is that I have had some rather serious complaints laid before me in connection with the hours, wages and working conditions of some of the people employed in certain of the schools, and I wanted, first of all, to establish responsibility for these matters. Are

they questions which could be properly brought to the attention of the Acting Minister of Citizenship and Immigration?

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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

I mentioned a moment ago that the system of per capita grants is under review, and while I cannot enter into too much detail at the moment, because the matter is still being negotiated with the various religious authorities, I may say that it was with such things as this in mind that a new system was suggested. I do not want to say it was only because of that, but it was because we felt we should be given some idea of what the salaries were, and what the hours and terms of work were, in order, if you like, to justify the amount we were asked to pay, that we suggested to the authorities a division of the system of per capita grants and the placing of it on another basis altogether. That arrangement is under negotiation now with the religious authorities. It would be in fairly complete substitution for the system I have just outlined, and it would eliminate some of the difficulties the hon. member has mentioned.

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CCF

Thomas Speakman Barnett

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Barnett:

I am very glad to hear the minister has this matter under review, because I believe there are certain conditions which require correction in the general area to which I have referred. Had the minister not indicated that this review was being undertaken I might have been tempted to argue that some different system should be introduced in order that the wages being paid in certain instances might be brought more closely into line with the prevailing rate principle which is in effect in certain other departments.

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Item agreed to. SI. Construction or acquisition of buildings, works, land and equipment, $5,785,150.


SC

Alexander Bell Patterson

Social Credit

Mr. Patterson:

Mr. Chairman, in this particular item there are two rather substantial allocations for the construction or acquisition of buildings under day schools amounting to over $3 million; and under residential schools -construction or acquisition of buildings- to $1,985,000. I wonder whether we could have a breakdown of the projects undertaken under those two headings?

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CCF

Harold Edward Winch

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Winch:

Mr. Chairman, there are a number of questions that I, too, wish to ask under this vote. Since it is now ten minutes after ten, may I call it ten o'clock?

Progress reported.

Resolutions adopted in committee of supply this day reported and concurred in.

4144 HOUSE OF

Business of the House BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

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LIB

Lionel Chevrier (Official Opposition House Leader; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Chevrier:

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the

leader of the house what the business is for tomorrow?

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PC

Howard Charles Green (Minister of Defence Production; Minister of Public Works; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Progressive Conservative Party House Leader)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Green:

Tomorrow we will proceed with the estimates of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, and then with the legislation estimates, public works, health and welfare, finance, and fisheries.

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January 31, 1958