January 31, 1958

LIB

Charles Benjamin Howard

Liberal

Mr. Howard:

I was just wondering whether this relief cash will be substantially the same as relief under the municipal or provincial government structures.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Permalink
PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

That is the intention. The

places where this experiment is being carried out are St. Regis, Sault Ste. Marie, Norway House, Duck Lake and Edmonton.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Permalink
LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill

Liberal

Mr. Pickersgill:

I had intended to ask the

minister a question because I was sure he was in error yesterday. I had a little difficulty in persuading the treasury board that this experiment should be undertaken and I was wondering whether the minister could tell us if the indications are that it is working out well?

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Permalink
PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

Yes, as far as I know it is working out very well, in fact so well that we hope to be able to persuade the treasury board to provide an increased amount for next year.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Permalink
LIB
CCF

Thomas Speakman Barnett

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Barnett:

These places the minister mentioned where this experiment is being carried out did not, I think, include any places in British Columbia. Is that correct?

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Permalink
PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

I am afraid that I am advised, to my astonishment, that it was felt that the places I have mentioned were more suitable for the purpose of a pilot project than was any place in British Columbia. I am advised it might be extended to British Columbia in the coming fiscal year.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Permalink
CCF

Thomas Speakman Barnett

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Barnett:

While we are on this point, could the minister clarify whether in addition to the specific areas he has mentioned, it might be extended to the point where in all agencies individuals to whom payment is made could be selected. In other words, would it be possible that individuals could be used as pilots in a broader area? I had in mind the Alberni agency in my own constituency, where I imagine there are still a number of places where such a plan might not work out very well at the outset but there might be a number of individuals who could be used as [DOT]pilot cases. In such cases it might work out very well, and this would lead the way so that it might eventually become a matter of general application. I mention Alberni because in that agency are some of the more isolated Indian settlements on the coast.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Permalink
PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

It is going to be extended, Mr. Chairman, but the hon. gentleman will appreciate that $100,000 as an initial experiment is pretty limited, and that we have to confine ourselves as to areas which can be used for the purpose of such an experiment. This is a pilot project. It will be extended, and I am sure it will be successful. As soon as possible it will be given universal application.

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Permalink
CCF

Frederick Samuel Zaplitny

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Zaplilny:

I would like to take advantage of the minister's suggestion that I raise the question of the revolving fund under this item. I would like to say that I appreciate the help he is giving with respect to the proposed housing program which he intends to carry out, and I am sure it will be welcome, but I would like to mention two or three of the things upon which I would like information. I am sure it would be useful to have these on the record.

Firstly, I would like him to define the revolving fund as clearly as he can so that we will know exactly what he means by this term. Secondly, I would like him to tell us whether there are any other funds which could be made available for the purpose of making advances for the establishing of industry on Indian reserves and also on what basis, or from what sources funds could be made available; whether they are repayable, and if so on what terms, and over what period of time. I would also like him to tell us whether there are any officials or officers of the Indian department who specialize in this type of work; that is, in helping the Indians themselves and setting up and organizing their local industry and giving them technical knowledge and assistance. These are not specific questions requiring specific answers but are simply laying the groundwork of the type of thing I-and I am sure hon. members of the committee-would like to know about the revolving fund.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Permalink
PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

Mr. Chairman, the provision for the revolving fund is found in section 69 of the Indian Act which provides:

The Minister of Finance may from time to time advance to the minister-

Of this department-

-out of the consolidated revenue fund such sums of money as the minister may require to enable him'-

And then are specified in subsections the types of purposes for which loans may be authorized. One which is close to what has been mentioned here earlier is subsection (b) which reads:

-to expend or to lend money for the carrying out of co-operative projects on behalf of Indians.

The procedure is that the Indians have to submit their proposal through the agent or the Indian superintendent to the department, and if it is felt to be either economically sound, useful in training Indians in industrial or commercial projects, or that it has a chance of economic success-and I cannot be strictly categorical as to these features-then it will be approved. Each project is examined on its own merits.

I placed on Hansard earlier a table showing the number of loans that have been made

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration since the fund was established and the types of enterprises for which they have been authorized.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Permalink
CCF

Frederick Samuel Zaplitny

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Zaplitny:

I thank the minister for that information. Would he supplement it by following up the other questions I raised. For example, on what basis is a loan made? What are the terms? Are these loans repayable? If so, is there a laid down formula or is it left in each individual case to negotiation with the band as to what the terms will be?

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Permalink
PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

I am informed that the usual term is five years at 5 per cent.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Permalink

Item agreed to. 79. Fur conservation, $320,363. Mr. Her ridge: Mr. Chairman, I want to bring to the minister's attention the fact that this Arrow Lake Indian band acquired the rights to a trap line in the Monashee mountain range. As a matter of fact, it is their only trap line existing in the Selkirk mountains or the Monashee mountains, the Selkirks being on the east side of the Columbia river and the Monashees being on the west side of the Columbia river, near Kootenay and the Okanagan boundary. The last survivor of this band died some years ago I understand and there was some relationship through intermarriage between the Arrow Lake band and the Kootenay band. Because of the blood relationship, I understand that this trap line has been kept in the hands of the Indians, the title to which has been maintained by the annual visit of an Indian from the Kootenay band living around Creston. I understand there is some confusion over the matter. The Indian affairs branch has an agency at Cranbrook and one at Vernon, but I think this is one of those small matters that is very inconvenient for their attention. However, I do ask the minister to have the question looked into, because I believe it is only right that the Indians in the area should retain title to the trap line if at all possible.


PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

I am informed by the officials that the matter must not have assumed major proportions because they do not recall its ever having been referred to them, but we will make a note and look into it with a sympathetic inclination toward the point of view of the hon. gentleman.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Permalink

Item agreed to. 80- Administration, operation and maintenance, $11,471,997.


CCF

Thomas Speakman Barnett

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Barnett:

Mr. Chairman, I have some questions I should like to ask the minister under vote No. 80. My particular interest at

this time relates to the question of the residential schools and in particular to the item listed as per capita grants as found at page 168, under the details of the estimates. I am wondering whether the minister could explain just what is covered under the heading "Per Capita Grants". For example, am I correct in assuming that no part of the cost of providing instruction is included in that amount, and that the payments for instruction or instructors is covered under the details ahead of that? Would the minister outline generally what is covered by the item $4,172,003 for per capita grants?

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Permalink
PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

First of all I should like to say that this item provides for the payment of per capita grants to 67 residential schools. The rates are based on the facilities provided, geographical location, and type and size of building. The costs of operation vary according to the above factors. I could give the hon. gentleman a breakdown by provinces but the sort of things that would be covered, or are intended to be covered in the per capita grants, are as outlined in the general summary I have just given.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Permalink
CCF

Thomas Speakman Barnett

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Barnett:

Am I correct in understanding that the term "per capita" means a grant of so much for each pupil resident in the school?

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Permalink
PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

Yes, that is correct and I could give this additional information. The grants are paid quarterly to the school managements, and out of the grants the schools are expected to provide clothing, fuel, food and other requirements for the operation of the schools, and salaries of cooks, janitors, engineers, firemen, seamstresses, disciplinarians and farmers. As I understand the system, each school makes an estimate of what is going to be required under these headings for the operation of the school for the year and then discusses with us the number of pupils to be accommodated at the school for the year and as a result of negotiation we arrive at a per capita grant to meet the costs of operation.

Topic:   DEPARTMENT OF CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION
Permalink

January 31, 1958