January 24, 1958

CCF

Willis Merwyn (Merv) Johnson

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Johnson (Kindersley):

Are we dealing with it clause by clause?

Topic:   AGRICULTURE
Subtopic:   MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

Douglas Scott Harkness (Minister of Agriculture)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Harkness:

Mr. Chairman, the amendment I propose to ask my colleague the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys to move is as follows:

That subclause (2) of clause 2 be amended by striking out the words "have regard to" In line 12 on page 2 and substituting therefor the words "be guided by".

This would mean that the clause would then read as follows:

In prescribing the percentage of the base price of an agricultural commodity under subparagraph (i) or (ii) of paragraph (e) of subsection (1), the governor in council shall be guided by the estimated average cost of production of the commodity, and such other factors as the governor in council considers to be relevant.

The reasons for this amendment are, firstly, that the words "be guided by" are stronger than the words "have regard to", and it was requested that this change be made for this reason. In addition, it has been pointed out by hon. members opposite that they have made a complaint, as have some farm organizations, that in this clause the words "have regard to" have a particularly bad odour as far as certain farmers in this country are concerned because they occurred in the United Kingdom wheat agreement and in their opinion the words "have regard to" did not mean too much. I am the last one in the world to want to put something in the bill which, because of past experience, people find distasteful. For these two reasons this change has been made.

Topic:   AGRICULTURE
Subtopic:   MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, ETC.
Permalink
CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

On

a point of order, Mr. Chairman, before the minister's colleague moves the amendment, may I call your attention to the matter I raised a moment ago, namely that one of my colleagues wishes to move an amendment for the insertion of a subparagraph in clause 2 at a point earlier than the point at which this amendment would be made. That was the reason I suggested you call the clause by its constituent parts. Indeed, I know there is a rule in the book, and I remember it once being applied, to the effect that if a clause has been amended it is not then possible to deal with an earlier part of that clause. My colleague, the hon. member for Kindersley, does wish to move for the insertion of another subparagraph after subparagraph (c) of subclause (1) of clause 2. I would have

3792 HOUSE OF COMMONS

Agricultural Products-Price Stabilization no objection to your dealing with this amendment provided you did not then tell my colleague from Kindersley that he is too late for the one he proposes.

Topic:   AGRICULTURE
Subtopic:   MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

Charles Edward Rea

Progressive Conservative

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Rea):

I would first like to straighten out one matter. As the hon. member knows, I call clauses according to Standing Order 78 and I did ask the committee if they wished me to break it down into subclauses. The committee apparently did not want that done, and therefore we have this amendment now before us-

Topic:   AGRICULTURE
Subtopic:   MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, ETC.
Permalink
CCF

Willis Merwyn (Merv) Johnson

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Johnson (Kindersley):

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. As you were requesting the house to say whether they wished to have it dealt with in whole or in sections I rose to my feet and requested that you break it down. I do not know whether the loud speaker in this part of the house was turned on and I realize we are some distance from you, sir, but I do respectfully suggest that many of us in this group requested it to be dealt with, subclause by subclause.

Topic:   AGRICULTURE
Subtopic:   MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

Douglas Scott Harkness (Minister of Agriculture)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Harkness:

Mr. Chairman, in order not to waste any further time in regard to this matter, I have no objection if they want to move an amendment which will come in before this one. If they wish to do that, let us go ahead and get this amendment finished with.

Topic:   AGRICULTURE
Subtopic:   MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

Charles Edward Rea

Progressive Conservative

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Rea):

I think this amendment was here first, and I think it should be handled first. I may tell the hon. member for Kindersley that I asked the committee whether or not they wished me to break it down and I heard nothing but no.

Topic:   AGRICULTURE
Subtopic:   MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, ETC.
Permalink
?

An hon. Member:

They said yes down here.

Topic:   AGRICULTURE
Subtopic:   MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, ETC.
Permalink
CCF

Alexander Malcolm Nicholson

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Nicholson:

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I think you did not see the hon. member who rose on a point of order before the amendment had been properly moved. I think this is not before the committee properly at this time and I think the suggestion of the Minister of Agriculture that we should proceed with the amendment of the hon. member for Kindersley would facilitate the business of the committee.

Topic:   AGRICULTURE
Subtopic:   MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

Charles Edward Rea

Progressive Conservative

The Acting Chairman (Mr. Rea):

I will

deal with this one first, and then I will be glad to consider the amendment of the hon. member for Kindersley.

Topic:   AGRICULTURE
Subtopic:   MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

Paul Comtois (Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Comtois:

Mr. Chairman, I move an

amendment to clause 2 as follows:

That subclause (2) of clause 2 be amended by striking out the words "have regard to" in line 12 on page 2, and substituting therefor the words "be guided by".

Topic:   AGRICULTURE
Subtopic:   MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Walter Adam Tucker

Liberal

Mr. Tucker:

When this amendment is moved that the governor in council is to be

guided by certain factors, it seems to me that the objective towards which he is to be guided should be put there too. As I understand it, the minister intends to move an amendment to the preamble to the effect that the purpose of the bill is to provide farmers with a fair share of the national income. As has been pointed out, that purpose is a part of the objectives section of the Agricultural Prices Support Act. When it appears in the preamble it has not a binding effect upon the board administering this act, it is just a vague objective. But if it is put into the operative section of the act as an objective of the act when prices are being set, then the provision has a more binding effect, and in this regard the measure becomes at least as good as the Agricultural' Prices Support Act. But if it is left in the preamble it is not as good.

I know it is no use my moving this as an amendment, but I would suggest to the minister that between now and when we meet again he should give consideration to adding at the end of the word "relevant" in subsection (ii) the following: "In order to provide that the farmers receive a fair share of the national income" and thus prescribe that objective as part of the objective in setting the prices. Then the minister could amend the preamble as proposed. It would certainly do no harm there, though it would not have any binding effect.

Topic:   AGRICULTURE
Subtopic:   MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, ETC.
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SC

Charles Edward Johnston

Social Credit

Mr. Johnston (Bow River):

Mr. Chairman, I wish to ask the minister a question. He is now suggesting we should change the words "shall have regard to" to "be guided by". Is there any difference in the legal interpretation of the two terms, or do they both have the same effect legally?

Topic:   AGRICULTURE
Subtopic:   MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

Douglas Scott Harkness (Minister of Agriculture)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Harkness:

Mr. Chairman, the legal officials of the crown tell me that the expression "be guided by" is stronger than "have regard to".

Topic:   AGRICULTURE
Subtopic:   MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, ETC.
Permalink
CCF

Jacob Schulz

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Schulz:

I am certainly in favour of the change. Of course, everybody knows it does not mean anything because there is no difference between "having regard to" and "being guided by". I want to make that clear. Further, I want to say that it is in complete contradiction to subsection (ii) which comes earlier, and which says:

-in relation to a designated commodity, such percentage of the base price thereof as the Governor in Council prescribes.

It is stated there that the prescribed prices must be set at the percentage of the base price. What meaning could this change have, when the clause before says that the price must be set at the percentage of the base price?

Progress reported.

Topic:   AGRICULTURE
Subtopic:   MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTS, ETC.
Permalink

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

LIB

George Carlyle Marler

Liberal

Mr. Marler:

May I ask the leader of the house what is the business for tomorrow?

Topic:   BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Permalink
PC

Howard Charles Green (Minister of Defence Production; Minister of Public Works; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Progressive Conservative Party House Leader)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Green:

Tomorrow, Mr. Speaker, we will continue the debate on this bill and then consider the estimates of the Department of

Business of the House

Citizenship and Immigration and the Department of National Revenue.

Topic:   BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Permalink
LIB

At ten o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to the order of the house passed on December 2, 1957.


January 24, 1958