January 9, 1958

PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

If it suits the convenience of hon. members to move to item 173 that is perfectly satisfactory to me.

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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CCF

Alistair McLeod Stewart

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Stewart (Winnipeg North):

Mr. Chairman, I am afraid it does not suit my convenience just now unless the minister can tell me that I am not dealing with that part of the estimates where the question I have in mind could be asked. I am faced with another difficulty. I wish the minister would occupy some other dual position than that of Minister of Justice and that of Minister of Citizenship and Immigration because I have questions in mind which may deal with both of those positions.

First of all, I want to bring the minister back to a question I asked last November about one Per Holting, a Canadian citizen who boarded a S.A.S. aircraft in Greenland, having purchased a ticket from there through to Los Angeles and when the plane touched down in Winnipeg, got off the plane. I agree that according to the ticket Mr. Holting should have gone right through to Los Angeles and I suppose it was part of the contract between Mr. Holting and S.A.S. that he should do so.

Nevertheless this Canadian citizen, having got off the plane at Winnipeg, decided he would like to break his journey permanently at that point. In an answer the minister gave to me he said that the police of St. James, at the request of the captain of the aircraft, literally had Mr. Holting put back on that plane, and I suppose it would have been done -no matter how gently-nevertheless forcibly.

I would like to know if it is possible for a Canadian citizen to be deported from this country in such a way and, if so, under what law? This man was sent out of his country. Here again there is the question as to whether this should come under the Department of Justice or under the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, but I think there is an element of law in this matter, and I would like to know what the Minister has to say about what I call the deportation of Mr. Holting, a word which I gathered was disagreed with previously. The fact remains that a Canadian citizen was deported, sent out of this country by police officers, acting, I have no doubt, honestly. Nevertheless he was sent out of this country (to another land

Supply-Justice

and had to find his way back. I should like to find out under what law this man was exiled from Canada.

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

Mr. Chairman, I think that part of the hon. gentleman's question might better be asked on the estimates of the Department of Transport which is responsible for questions arising under these international air agreements, and under which the particular air line in question was prohibited from allowing a passenger to deplane in Winnipeg.

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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CCF

Alexander Malcolm Nicholson

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Nicholson:

Or the Department of

External Affairs.

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulion:

I might almost say any department other than my own. I do assure the hon. gentleman that this department is not responsible in this matter at all. Mr. Holting was not arrested-perhaps I should say interfered with-by federal police; he was not interfered with by any officers of the Department of Citizenship and Immigration. Representations that were made to any authorities were made by the air line officials who were seeking to discharge the terms under which they were given the right to land in Winnipeg. The police involved in the case were, I believe, the St. James municipal police. Mr. Holting suffered himself to be led back to the plane, and went on to Los Angeles, and while I understand the apprehension and dissatisfaction felt by the hon. member I think that in the circumstances I must take the position, in dealing with the estimates of the Department of Justice, that there is nothing here for me to answer.

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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CCF

Alistair McLeod Stewart

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Stewart (Winnipeg North):

But is this not a matter which should be the concern of the Minister of Justice. Is it possible that under our system of law in this country a Canadian can be deported from Canada? Is there not a principle here? A Canadian lands here and surely, if he decided to stay, it would be the duty of the S.A.S. to take action against him and to do it properly through the courts. Is there not a violation of law here? What does the Minister of Justice have to say about that?

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

I think that if Mr. Holting feels that he was improperly treated a remedy would be open to him by way of whatever action he may see fit to take against those by whom he feels he was improperly treated. I do not think as Minister of Justice I should be drawn into expressing an opinion beyond the general statement I have made. The difficulty under which I labour is that as a private citizen I might be as much concerned about the situation as is the hon. member, but the moment I say something here as Minister

Supply-Justice

of Justice I might be taken as expressing an official opinion that Mr. Holting should or should not follow a certain course of action.

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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CCF

Alistair McLeod Stewart

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Stewart (Winnipeg North):

should direct a question to the minister in his capacity as Minister of Citizenship and Immigration will I get the same answer, or will I get a fuller answer?

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

That would depend entirely on the question which the hon. gentleman asks.

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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SC

Frank Claus Christian

Social Credit

Mr. Christian:

Mr. Chairman, I wish to ask a question with regard to item 172. I notice that the increase in this item is approximately $9,000. Would the minister like to report on what progress has been made in Canada in so far as uniformity of legislation is concerned.

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

The increase of $9,497 is for the entire departmental administration, whereas the amount voted to the Commissioners with respect to promoting uniformity of legislation is only $200, which is the amount actually expended this year. Their meeting took place in Calgary in September just prior to the meeting of the Canadian Bar Association.

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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SC

Frank Claus Christian

Social Credit

Mr. Christian:

What progress has been made in so far as uniformity of legislation is concerned?

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

This is a matter which is

largely of concern to the provinces. What is sought in these meetings is to bring legislation and legal practices in the various provinces into conformity as far as is possible. Our interest as I understand it, is more a watching interest than a direct interest because of course when we legislate we legislate for the whole dominion.

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the minister a question which, as he knows, has been directed to a number of his colleagues on the first item of their estimates. Is he making any reductions in the estimates of his department for this year, and has he found any examples of waste or extravagance?

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

Mr. Chairman, I propose to move three reductions in the estimates, one in the combines branch-and I assure the hon. member that it does not represent any diminution in the work of that branch- one in the penitentiaries and one in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. In so far as the other part of the question is concerned, that is to waste and extravagance, I do not recall

that when I sat on that side of the house I ever made any allegations of waste and extravagance against this particular department.

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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CCF

Frank Howard

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Howard:

Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether, if this government gets down to attempting to bring the labour laws of Canada into conformity, that will be done under the system for promoting conformity of legislation dealt with in item 172.

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

I imagine that the discussion of labour legislation could take place at the meetings to which reference has been made, but it would be more likely to take place at a conference of labour ministers or deputy labour ministers, and I understand that such conferences do take place from time to time.

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

Does the uniformity referred to under this heading mean uniformity as to the substance of legislation or just uniformity as to the form?

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

I am not sure I heard the hon. member's question fully, but the sort of topic that would be discussed would be uniformity of highway legislation, uniformity with regard to bill of sale acts, mechanics liens acts and subjects of that nature. I am not sure whether that answers the hon. gentleman's question.

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

In

part. If I may repeat my question, I asked whether what was sought was uniformity as to substance or uniformity as to form.

Topic:   ATLANTIC PROVINCES
Subtopic:   LEGISLATION RESPECTING
Sub-subtopic:   THERMAL PROJECTS
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January 9, 1958