December 20, 1957

PC

Walter Gilbert Dinsdale (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Veterans Affairs)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Dinsdale:

Certainly.

Topic:   INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
Subtopic:   PROVISION OP ANNUAL VACATIONS WITH PAY FOR EMPLOYEES
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

Does he not believe that both of these principles apply just as well to the first year of employment as to the second year of employment?

Topic:   INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
Subtopic:   PROVISION OP ANNUAL VACATIONS WITH PAY FOR EMPLOYEES
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PC

Walter Gilbert Dinsdale (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Veterans Affairs)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Dinsdale:

Quite; the first year of employment should certainly allow for a reasonable period of vacation. My time has almost expired, and I had intended to deal with this point before concluding my remarks. Now that the question has been raised by the hon. member, I should like to make a reasonable appeal to him. I will put it in the form of a question. Does he not think that any employee should establish a reasonable degree of competence and also indicate by his attitude towards his job that he has a reasonable degree of dedication and seriousness of purpose to his occupation?

Topic:   INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
Subtopic:   PROVISION OP ANNUAL VACATIONS WITH PAY FOR EMPLOYEES
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

Would the hon. member like an answer?

Topic:   INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
Subtopic:   PROVISION OP ANNUAL VACATIONS WITH PAY FOR EMPLOYEES
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PC

Walter Gilbert Dinsdale (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Veterans Affairs)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Dinsdale:

Yes.

Topic:   INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
Subtopic:   PROVISION OP ANNUAL VACATIONS WITH PAY FOR EMPLOYEES
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PC

Daniel Roland Michener (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Speaker:

If the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre speaks now he will close the debate.

Topic:   INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
Subtopic:   PROVISION OP ANNUAL VACATIONS WITH PAY FOR EMPLOYEES
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PC

Walter Gilbert Dinsdale (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Veterans Affairs)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Dinsdale:

It seems-

Topic:   INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
Subtopic:   PROVISION OP ANNUAL VACATIONS WITH PAY FOR EMPLOYEES
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PC

Lewis Elston Cardiff (Chief Government Whip; Whip of the Progressive Conservative Party)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Cardiff:

Would the hon. member permit a question?

Topic:   INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
Subtopic:   PROVISION OP ANNUAL VACATIONS WITH PAY FOR EMPLOYEES
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PC

Walter Gilbert Dinsdale (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Veterans Affairs)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Dinsdale:

May I proceed without further interruption? It seems to me that this is the only point of difference between Bill No. 2 and Bill No. 16. I have the utmost confidence in the Minister of Labour (Mr. Starr) who is sponsoring Bill No. 16. I have read his bill along with that of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, and it seems to me that all the available information on this problem has been gathered together by the Minister of Labour. He has taken these important principles into consideration. If the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre will adjust his thinking in this slight respect, this difference between one week for the first year as against two weeks for the first year, he will find it possible to support Bill No. 16. Then, we will move more rapidly to a very desirable goal and I think we will avoid considerable-

Topic:   INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
Subtopic:   PROVISION OP ANNUAL VACATIONS WITH PAY FOR EMPLOYEES
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg Norlh Cenire):

Is

a vacation with pay a reward or a right?

Topic:   INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
Subtopic:   PROVISION OP ANNUAL VACATIONS WITH PAY FOR EMPLOYEES
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PC

Walter Gilbert Dinsdale (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Veterans Affairs)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Dinsdale:

It is a bit of both, Mr. Speaker.

Topic:   INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
Subtopic:   PROVISION OP ANNUAL VACATIONS WITH PAY FOR EMPLOYEES
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Cenire):

There is where we differ.

Topic:   INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
Subtopic:   PROVISION OP ANNUAL VACATIONS WITH PAY FOR EMPLOYEES
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PC

Walter Gilbert Dinsdale (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Veterans Affairs)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Dinsdale:

It could be both.

Topic:   INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
Subtopic:   PROVISION OP ANNUAL VACATIONS WITH PAY FOR EMPLOYEES
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PC

Daniel Roland Michener (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Speaker:

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but the time for consideration

Agricultural Products-Price Stabilization of public and private bills having expired, the house will resume, when it resumes, consideration of the matter which was under discussion at five o'clock.

At six o'clock the house took recess.

Topic:   INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
Subtopic:   PROVISION OP ANNUAL VACATIONS WITH PAY FOR EMPLOYEES
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AFTER RECESS The house resumed at eight o'clock.


AGRICULTURE

MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN COMMODITIES, ETC.


The house resumed consideration of the motion of Mr. Harkness for the second reading of Bill No. 237, for the stabilization of the prices of agricultural commodities. (Translation):


LIB

Ovide Laflamme

Liberal

Mr. Ovide Laflamme (Bellechasse):

Mr. Speaker, when the house adjourned, at five o'clock, I was discussing Bill No. 237 and I had mentioned the work done by the important Senate committee on the use of land in Canada. Quoting from a brief submitted by the assistant deputy minister of agriculture, Mr. Chagnon. Here is what he said before the committee on Thursday, February 21, 1957:

"Farming as now practised in Eastern Canada does not seem to provide for a substantial proportion of our farmers and their families, a standard of living comparable to the average standard prevailing in Canada at the present time. A common explanation for this is that farms are too small, labour costs too high, farm prices too low, and so on."

Mr. Chagnon, whose experience and knowledge of Canadian agriculture are very wide, then deals in this brief with the problem of the economic recovery of a certain portion of Eastern farmers, and highlights a solution which he found very successful, the fertilization of grazing land in areas where farming requires too much work for the returns it has to offer.

Quebec agriculture in particular owes much to the work and knowledge of Mr. Chagnon. May I, incidentally, point out that he has rendered numerous services to the Quebec farmers, especially before he was called into the federal Department of Agriculture where he is continuing his admirable work.

2694 HOUSE OF

Agricultural Products-Price Stabilisation

It should be noted, however, that the remedy proposed by the assistant deputy minister of agriculture necessarily requires a transformation of the agricultural methods used in less fertile areas.

One factor which must necessarily be considered is the fact that on many small farms too much money is being spent on farming machinery.

Nobody, of course, can blame a farmer for wanting to mechanize his farm, but in many cases farmers have to spend $5, $10, $15 and even $20,000 on farming machinery which serves only four months a year. The cost of these machines, their normal depreciation and their uselessness during too great a part of the year, are a heavy load on the budget of many farmers and constitute, I think, a capital expenditure which does not give sufficient return, if not a pure loss.

The pooling by a number of farmers of the machinery necessary to proper farming should be practised more efficiently than it is at the proper time. Now let me turn to the brief presented by the president of the U.C.C., Mr. Lemoine, to the same committee on Thursday, February 28, 1957. I would like to call the attention of the house to the figures submitted by him to point to the complexity of the problem. According to Mr. Lemoine's survey, in 1956 46.2 per cent of Quebec farmers lived on farming alone. The percentage for the whole of Canada, including Quebec that same year was 38 per cent. Therefore, 54 per cent of our farmers have to work outside the farm for part at least of their livelihood. In Quebec, as a matter of fact, 32 per cent derive income from logging and 22 per cent from industry. When I mention the percentage of those who must find some revenue through working in the bush, I believe that this demonstrates the necessity for farmers-especially Quebec farmers-to be assured of a minimum price for pulpwood. This request was often presented by groups belonging to the U.C.C. and the authorities concerned should see to it that a favourable conclusion in this regard be arrived at since this is a matter which involves at least 32 per cent of farmers.

Moreover, in the province of Quebec, there are 18 per cent of farmers whose income from sources outside farming is greater than from farming itself. In his brief Mr. Lemoine also deals with the matter of fertilizing grazing land in areas where raising crops is extremely difficult. In this regard also he went

[Mr. Laflamme.l

on record as approving the opinion expressed by the assistant deputy minister, Mr. Chagnon.

Taking up then the matter of pasture land in these districts, and that of markets for agricultural products, Mr. Lemoine refers to that part of the Gordon Commission report where it is predicted that in 1980 or thereabouts Canada will have 26,000,000 people. Mr. Lemoine states that the expected increase in population as well as the increase in income will make for a stronger consumer demand, with an increasingly pronounced preference for food of the best quality.

This means of course that the development of our agriculture is closely tied to the increase in the population. That is obvious in the case of farmers whose farms are situated close to large centres where they have natural outlets for their products, practically on their doorstep.

In any event, agriculture in those areas should, as much as possible, be directed in such a way that the greatest possible number of farms may provide our farmers with an income comparable to that of other Canadian workers.

The Conservative government merely changed the title and introduced complications in eleven year old Liberal legislation. If the Minister of Agriculture meant to play Santa Claus to the Canadian farmer, he will soon find out that the agricultural class is greatly disappointed by a political party which has promised it everything in that field.

The problems of agriculture are not new. In his brief, Mr. Chagnon states: "I have known the technical aspects of agriculture for the past 30 years and I can say that the problem of inadequate income on the farm is not new. I heard of it even when I was young".

Personally, I am far from approving the formula, which I would describe as one-sided, proposed by the C.C.F. party and I do not like the lack of objectivity of their basically demagogical statements, with regards the best means of increasing farm income.

(Text):

Topic:   AGRICULTURE
Subtopic:   MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN COMMODITIES, ETC.
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PC

William Earl Rowe

Progressive Conservative

Hon. W. Earl Rowe (Simcoe East):

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the applause from my friends on both sides of the house. As this is the first time that I have risen this session I might be permitted to congratulate you, and to say that I am happy to see so many of my old friends in parliament and I am especially

happy to see so many new friends in parliament. I think probably both are an improvement.

I have listened to the debate on this particular bill with some interest and some concern. I believe it is the most important agricultural bill that has ever been brought before this parliament. I can quite appreciate the attitude of those who sit to your left, Mr. Speaker, especially that of my genial friend the former minister of agriculture, the hon. member for Melville (Mr. Gardiner) for whom I have always had a very high regard, whether he believes it or not, when it is suggested that this was an election issue or an election dodge. The reason, Mr. Speaker, is probably- as he has emphasized so fluently-that it is the same bill that he proposed in 1944, just before the 1945 election. In fact he did very well with it at that time but now he comes back with the attitude of scorn it but still adorn it, because he has seen it work twice. It served his purpose very well in 1944; it elected him. He thought so much of it, Mr. Speaker, that he decided he would not use it and now he comes back and sees it is better than it was, and now he condemns it. I sometimes wonder just where we farmers come in here. My hon. friend laughs but I have been a farmer-

Topic:   AGRICULTURE
Subtopic:   MEASURE TO PROVIDE GUARANTEED PRICES FOR CERTAIN COMMODITIES, ETC.
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December 20, 1957