April 8, 1957

PC

George Randolph Pearkes

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Pearkes:

I have not had an opportunity to get to clause 7 yet. The bill has only just been handed to me.

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
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LIB

John Watson MacNaught (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. MacNaught:

Under clause 7 an exception is made.

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
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Clause agreed to. Clauses 6 and 7 agreed to. On clause 8-Dealing in skins.


PC

John Angus MacLean

Progressive Conservative

Mr. MacLean:

I think this is an appropriate clause on which my observation may be made. I would like to know what information is made available by the countries concerned as to the number of fur seals taken in the north Pacific. In the most recent copy of the U.S.S.R. Illustrated News, which hon. members received today or yesterday, there is an article about the fur seal fishery in the north Pacific, and it is said among other things that thousands of valuable seal skins are shipped annually from the seal islands by 20 young trappers headed by two Russians with unpronounceable names. I am just wondering what pooling of information there is between the countries concerned. In other words, do we know the number of seals which the Russians take each year?

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
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LIB

John Watson MacNaught (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. MacNaught:

In connection with that, we know accurately the number of seals taken by the United States since 1911 when the convention came into force. How many seals the Japanese have been taking pelagi-cally, or how many the Russians have been taking over the last few years, we do not know. But as soon as this convention comes into effect we shall have this sharing of information, and from then on we will know accurately the number of seals taken by the four interested countries, Japan, the United States, the U.S.S.R. and Canada.

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
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PC

George Randolph Pearkes

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Pearkes:

I would like to know what steps are taken to see that Canada is assured of her fair share of pelts from the Pribilof island and also from the Russian islands. Do we have inspectors accompanying United States crews which are killing these seals on those islands? Do we have inspectors accompanying the killing operations carried out by the Russians?

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
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LIB

John Watson MacNaught (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. MacNaught:

In connection with the Pribilof kill we have had Canadian officials there during the catch. I presume-and I am reasonably sure of this-that similar provision will be made in future with regard to the Commander and the Robben islands.

North Pacific Fur Seals

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
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PC

George Randolph Pearkes

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Pearkes:

Has Canada received any portion or any moneys whatever from the killing of the seals on the Russian islands?

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
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LIB

John Watson MacNaught (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. MacNaught:

After 1911, during the first years when the convention was in effect, the Canadian government received about $5,000 worth of seals from the Russian government -I am quoting from memory-in connection with the seals killed on the Commander islands, and a somewhat larger share from the Japanese government in respect of seals killed on the Robben island. That was supposed to be 15 per cent of the kill. I am afraid that at this late date it would be difficult to determine whether as a matter of fact we got 15 per cent of the kill between the years 1911 and 1917, the period of the agreement. I presume we got 15 per cent, because the question was never raised and if there had been any suspicion that we had not got our 15 per cent I presume something would have been said at that time.

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
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PC

George Randolph Pearkes

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Pearkes:

Since 1917 how much has Canada received from the kill on the Russian islands?

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
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LIB

John Watson MacNaught (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. MacNaught:

My recollection is that we have not received anything from the time of the Russian revolution up to the present time.

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
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PC

George Randolph Pearkes

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Pearkes:

And the Russians are still killing seals on these islands.

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
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LIB

John Watson MacNaught (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. MacNaught:

I have every reason to believe that the Russians have not been as extensively engaged in the sealing industry after 1917 as they were before that year. I doubt if the government of Russia was greatly concerned for some time after the revolution about the taking of seals.

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
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?

An hon. Member:

Do they have trained seals?

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
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PC

George Randolph Pearkes

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Pearkes:

Is the parliamentary assistant suggesting that when there is a revolution all killing ceases? All joking aside, the operations have been carried out both by the Russians and by the Japanese since 1917, and we carried on and have not been getting any moneys from those countries during that time. What steps has Canada taken to ensure that this country receives her rightful portion of these moneys? Has Canada ever made any protest to Russia or to Japan to the effect that we were not getting the portion of the kill to which by treaty we are entitled?

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
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LIB

John Watson MacNaught (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. MacNaught:

Mr. Chairman, I might point out to the hon. member for Esquimalt-Saanich that under the treaty of 1911 there was provision for revocation and that Japan revoked the treaty in 1941, just before Pearl harbour.

North Pacific Fur Seals

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
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PC

George Randolph Pearkes

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Pearkes:

There were a number of years between 1917 and 1941 and there was a large sum of money which should have been coming to Canada.

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
Permalink
LIB

John Watson MacNaught (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. MacNaughi:

I do not think I should be held responsible for what happened between those years. I told the hon. gentleman that we got some seals during those years, and that from 1941 on, at which time the Japanese government revoked the convention, we got no seals. The hon. gentleman is quite right when he says we are entitled to correct this state of affairs. I submit that is why we are endeavouring at the present time to get this convention through so that we can deposit our ratification at Washington. The other governments will deposit theirs, and then we will be working under the convention from that time forward.

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
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PC

George Randolph Pearkes

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Pearkes:

I am perfectly agreeable to the convention going through just as quickly as possible, but here we have the experience of all those years when Canada got no money although entitled to it. She got none of her share of the kill by the Russians and the Japanese. Yet we are entering into the same sort of treaty again. With the experience behind us of these countries not giving us our share we are still going to accept their word that they will give us 15 per cent. Does the fisheries department intend to have any inspectors present during the time when the kill of the Russian and Japanese herds takes place?

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
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LIB

John Watson MacNaught (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. MacNaughi:

There is no doubt that the utmost co-operation is going to exist between the four countries to see that the terms of the convention are carried out and that the proper portions of seal skins will be allotted to the respective countries.

Topic:   NORTH PACIFIC FUR SEALS
Subtopic:   IMPLEMENTATION OF INTERIM CONVENTION ON CONSERVATION
Permalink

April 8, 1957