April 8, 1957

LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

I have. I have said the scheme must be universally available, except in the case of Indians suffering from tuberculosis or mental illness and hospitalized in tubercular and mental institutions. They will be the responsibility of the federal government. Indians are included as residents of the provinces and come within the ambit of universal availability.

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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LIB

Marie Ann Shipley

Liberal

Mrs. Shipley:

Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the minister would tell the house whether the provision in clause 2 which says in effect that nursing service will be provided for in-patients means the regular nursing service provided by the hospital and paid for by them, or special nursing when necessary?

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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?

Murdo William Martin

Mr. Marlin:

It means the former.

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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Clause agreed to. Clause 3 agreed to. On clause 4-Amount of contributions.


CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

Mr. Chairman, I rise merely to say that if it were not out of order I would be moving an amendment at this point to the effect that the figure of 25 per cent, where it appears here in two places, should read 40 per cent. We accept the nature of this formula, but we think the total percentage paid by the federal treasury should be of the order of 80 per cent rather than of the order of 50 per cent.

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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?

An hon. Member:

Why not make it 100 per cent?

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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Clause agreed to. On clause 5-Provisions to be included in agreements.


CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

Mr. Chairman, I would like to hear some comments from the minister regarding clause 5, subclause 2 (d). I ask about this because I understand some of the provinces are concerned as to how huch responsibility is placed on them by this provision in the matter of recovering costs where a third party is liable for damages. May I ask, specifically, whether a province has to wait until it has recovered such costs, or whether payment is made in advance? May I ask, also, how far a province would have to go in taking legal action under this clause? Perhaps the minister would comment on this subclause.

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

They would not have to wait. There would be interim payments and other payments afterwards. This is the same arrangement as exists under provincial legislation, and it is a very fair one. All they are called upon to do is take all proper and reasonable steps to effect such recovery.

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

What does the minister mean by "all proper and reasonable steps"? Suppose you have a case where someone is hurt in an automobile accident in another province and the victim, shall we say, is transported to his home province and hospitalized there. Does the home province have to take legal action in the other province? What kind of an undertaking is necessary on the part of the province under the terms of this clause before the agreement is valid?

The minister says this is comparable to what is in the provincial legislation. I believe it is in the legislation of British Columbia, but I am not sure that it is in the legislation of Saskatchewan where you have, as a companion to this, a system of automobile insurance which covers everyone.

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

I do not know whether it is in the legislation, but I am told it is certainly the administrative practice in Saskatchewan.

All that we are asking here is that when an individual has a right of action arising out of the negligence of someone else for which he could receive damages or costs awarded by way of adjudication the province shall be subrogated to that person's position. There would be no actual difficulty involved. Even in the case my hon. friend mentions, if the province cannot recover, there is nothing more to it; but there is no legal difficulty even in the case of an accident that happens in another province. In the meantime the federal government would make an interim payment, and there would be an adjustment later on.

Health Insurance

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

I think the position is clear in the case of the individual, but in the province of Ontario there is an unsatisfied judgments fund which is available to persons who have suffered injury in a motor vehicle accident and who are not able either to locate or to collect from the person who is negligently responsible for the injuries they have suffered. Let us take a case where the injured person has collected from the unsatisfied judgments fund of the province, that fund having been built up by contributions from individual motor licencees in the province. What is going to be the position under this clause in such a case?

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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?

Murdo William Martin

Mr. Marlin:

It would depend whether such a person was legally entitled to recover the costs of such services from the responsible person.

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

Of course the individual concerned has under the legislation parted with his right because his claim has been, at least pro tanto, satisfied out of the unsatisfied judgment fund, and the unsatisfied judgments fund is in turn subrogated to the rights of the injured plaintiff. What is the position then with the unsatisfied judgments fund holding the right of subrogation?

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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?

Murdo William Martin

Mr. Marlin:

I do not think I can add anything more than I have said already. Where such a person is legally entitled to recover the cost of such services as the result of negligence or wrongful act, then there will be subrogation of the rights of the entitled person to the province.

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

No. The minister's statement does not clarify the position in that regard. It assumes that the individual is entitled to recover. In the case I am putting forward the individual has obtained his judgment. He must. Then, because the defendant cannot be located or because the defendant has not the means to satisfy the judgment, the individual recovers in whole or in part from the unsatisfied judgments fund. That fund is then subrogated to his rights, and that is a provincial fund.

What is the position in that event? Is the province going to be denied the right of recovery because the individual has lost his right, the unsatisfied judgments fund having been subrogated thereto?

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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LIB

Edward Turney Applewhaite (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Deputy Chairman:

Shall the clause carry?

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

No. Either the minister can tell me that he does not know what the answer is, or he can say that in the case I have put forward the whole burden falls on the province and there is no recovery at all under the provisions of this legislation. The

Health Insurance

further we go with this bill the more it becomes apparent that the minister has no right to use the word "comprehensive" as applied to the scheme under this legislation. He has been bandying that word about very freely as applied to the scheme, but it is a very limited scheme, and in frankness to the house and to the people of the country he should be more careful of his selection of adjectives to describe the scheme.

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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LIB

Edward Turney Applewhaite (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Deputy Chairman:

Shall the clause carry?

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

Evidently we have one more case where the whole burden falls on the province. If the minister would be frank enough to admit that, we could at least be clear in our understanding of the situation.

Topic:   HEALTH INSURANCE
Subtopic:   AUTHORIZATION OF PAYMENTS FROM CONSOLIDATED REVENUE FUND
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April 8, 1957