March 21, 1957

PC

William Earl Rowe

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Rowe:

We now expect a unique

contrast.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Stuart Sinclair Garson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. Garson:

But, Mr. Speaker, when the speech is carefully examined-and I refer not only to that of the hon. member for Eglinton but to that of the hon. member for Greenwood (Mr. Macdonnell)-I think we can probably agree with the former that they are incapable not only of stabbing us in the 82715-162i

The Budget-Mr. Garson back; and also of stabbing us in the front either. Upon careful examination I think it will be found that both of these speeches can be regarded, properly considered, as an endorsement of the budget.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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?

Some hon. Members:

Oh, oh.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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PC

Arza Clair Casselman

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Casselman:

What an imagination you have!

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Stuart Sinclair Garson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. Garson:

I would point out that they have overlooked one or two rather elementary facts. They have overlooked the fact that a budgetary surplus means that money has been taken from the pockets of the taxpayer rendering him unable to spend it; and the fact that it is a surplus indicates that it has not been spent by the government. Since it is spent by neither the taxpayer nor the government, it does not add to the fires of inflation which I am glad to know that both of these hon. gentlemen deprecate as much as does the government.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Macdonnell:

Will the minister permit a question?

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Stuart Sinclair Garson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. Garson:

Yes.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Macdonnell:

What does the minister think happens when government obligations are paid off? Does he think the money with which the government pays them off is impounded? Does he think that the money is then sterilized? The money simply goes into the hands of other people who are capable of spending it.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Stuart Sinclair Garson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. Garson:

Mr. Speaker, what I said was that when the government has a surplus, that surplus represents money which is not spent in an inflationary manner either by the taxpayer or by the government. If my hon. friend thinks otherwise, I will challenge him to quote a fiscal expert or an economist who agrees with him. In due course I shall quote a man whom I regard as an expert in these fields-

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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?

An hon. Member:

Who is that? Is it John Blackmore?

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Stuart Sinclair Garson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. Garson:

No. I think perhaps I had better make the quotation. Then my hon. friend will know that it is not John Black-more. It is a gentleman whom, in recent months, my hon. friends of the Conservative party have on occasion been known to quote themselves. It is the editor of the Winnipeg Free Press.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

Oh, oh!

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Stuart Sinclair Garson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. Garson:

His views upon this budget are quite different from those of either of the two hon. gentlemen who have so far taken part in this debate on behalf of the Conservative party. He says this, and he

25G0

The Budget-Mr. Garson says it as a man who upon occasion is not incapable of criticizing the government when he thinks that government policies are in error. He says that the budget is pretty good.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it permissible for a member to read an editorial concerning a matter which is actually under debate in the House of Commons?

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Edward Turney Applewhaite (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaite):

I must confess that I was not following the debate as closely as I perhaps should have been following it. But my understanding of the situation is this. I understand that an editorial cannot be read if it reflects upon or criticizes the proceedings in the house. But I think that on all sides of the house, in many debates, we have had introduced editorial opinion on the issue, but not on the issue as handled by members of either side of the house within the house.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

I think I know the editorial to which my hon. friend intends to refer. If so, it will prove to be very misguided. The purport of it is to reflect on the position taken by Her Majesty's opposition on this issue. As I understand the rule, the minister cannot stand up today and quote as an authority, as he is proposing to do, an expression of opinion on this issue now under debate in the house, which comes in the form of a newspaper editorial.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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PC

William Earl Rowe

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Rowe:

We have been reprimanded for the same thing many times.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Stuart Sinclair Garson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. Garson:

Speaking on the point of order, Mr. Speaker, many I say this. Surely it is possible to quote editorial opinion in this country upon an issue with which this house is dealing. What I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, is that I proceed to make my quotation and if my hon. friend can, at any stage, in relation to the actual quotation itself, successfully maintain that there is any reflection upon the house, then from that point on and without difficulty I am quite prepared to paraphrase the editorial and to express it as my own opinion. I am sure my hon. friend will not go to the length of objecting to my expressing such an opinion.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

Mr. Speaker, let us understand the situation.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Edward Turney Applewhaite (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Applewhaite):

Before the minister proceeds and under the circumstances prevailing, as I have done previously-perhaps the table should take note of the time-perhaps I should say a word. I put my hand on citation 264 of Beauchesne's third edition which reads as follows:

[Mr. Garson.l

264. It is out of order to read extracts in a debate if they: . . . (b) reflect upon any proceedings or any determination of the house;

. . . (d) refer to, comment on, or deny anything said by a member; . . .

As I understand it, we are debating the merits of the budget. Editorial opinion, either commending or criticizing the budget or any of its provisions, is, in my opinion, perfectly in order. But editorial opinion quoting or referring to or commenting on a speech made by any member on either side of the house in this debate would, of course, not be iri order under the citation. I have not had the privilege, which apparently both hon. members have had, of reading the editorial that is about to be read or not be read; but, as I understand it, that is the situation.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
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March 21, 1957