March 12, 1957

CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

On division.

Topic:   MARY ELIZABETH WILLIAMSON MILLER
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Carried on division.

Motion agreed to on division, bill read the second time and referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.

Topic:   MARY ELIZABETH WILLIAMSON MILLER
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PHYLLIS SHIRLEY MOORE LARIVIERE

LIB

William James Henderson

Liberal

Mr. W. J. Henderson (Kingston) moved

the second reading of Bill No. 229, for the relief of Phyllis Shirley Moore Lariviere.

Topic:   PHYLLIS SHIRLEY MOORE LARIVIERE
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CCF

Alexander Malcolm Nicholson

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. A. M. Nicholson (Mackenzie):

There

are some new investigators who appear in this particular case. I do not recall having run across their names previously. Hon. members will be interested in the variety of approaches used. On page 11 of the evidence I read:

I went there and I put on a jacket, a wind-breaker and went upstairs. I knocked at the door and the door opened by asking if there was a 82715-1351

Private Bills-Divorce

Mr. Steele there, and I told him that Mr. Steele had called for a taxi, and he said "There is no Steele here. My name is Lariviere." And he slammed the door. I went downstairs.

He kept observation on the apartment, and apparently this was about two o'clock in the morning. I quote again from the evidence.

At about 3.30 in the morning we went back. This time I wore coveralls and carried a hydro book. I gained admission to the apartment by saying there was some trouble on the floor and we were checking all the apartments. He asked me if there was a fire on the floor and I said, "Nothing serious". I said, "We just have to check all the lights on the floor", which we did. We found a female companion of his in the bedroom. There was one bedroom in that place. Apparently they had a kind of shindig because there were bottles and the place was in an upside down mess.

He started criticizing the hour we were calling, and we told him that trouble picks any hour, and we had to do our job and that was all. He didn't recognize me as having been there earlier.

Mr. Speaker, I think these investigators should be called before the committee before we reach a decision in connection with the evidence in this case. I would move, therefore, seconded again by the hon. member for Regina (Mr. Ellis):

That Bill No. 229 be not now read a second time, but that the subject matter thereof be referred to the standing committee on miscellaneous private bills.

Topic:   PHYLLIS SHIRLEY MOORE LARIVIERE
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

It is the pleasure of the house to adopt the main motion?

Topic:   PHYLLIS SHIRLEY MOORE LARIVIERE
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

On division.

Topic:   PHYLLIS SHIRLEY MOORE LARIVIERE
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Agreed to on division.

Motion agreed to on division, bill read the second time and referred to the committee on miscellaneous private bills.

Topic:   PHYLLIS SHIRLEY MOORE LARIVIERE
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JOSEPH RICARDO BOUZIANE

LIB

William James Henderson

Liberal

Mr. W. J. Henderson (Kingston) moved

the second reading of Bill No. 230, for the relief of Joseph Ricardo Bouziane.

Topic:   JOSEPH RICARDO BOUZIANE
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CCF

Erhart Regier

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Erhart Regier (Burnaby-Coquitlam):

Mr. Speaker, on looking over our orders of the day and the list of private bills, I rather regret that oil and gas have to be mixed up with the divorce bills of the nation. From what has happened here in the last few minutes I also regret that the people of Canada have no hope in looking to the Conservative party to supply them with any relief from this situation. It is very obvious that, if by any possible mistake, they should happen to be elected to office, they would follow the same course.

some very serious consideration by this house. Since this house is attempting to deal with a bill of this sort, I think it ought thoroughly to look into this matter, particularly where a man has been married only a little more than 18 months and is already before what some people choose to call the highest court of the land asking for relief from his marriage vows.

I notice that on page 10 of the evidence the young man said:

Q. Relate to the hon. members of this committee what happened after your marriage.

A. Well, it began about three months after the marriage.

Q. What did?

A. She started going out and we started having little fights. About three months after the wedding-

I note that for the second time he repeats that it was three months after the wedding that his wife showed some signs of disloyalty. However, Mr. Speaker, the man was married on August 27, 1955. Three months later would make it November 27, 1955, and he claims that that on December 19, 1955, in other words only 22 days after she began to be disloyal to him, the birth of his only child occurred. That seems rather odd indeed. Our imagination has to be stretched a great deal indeed to believe that within three weeks of the birth of her first child a woman would begin to be disloyal to her husband.

He says she left him on March 18, 1956. In other words she left him when the baby was only four months old, and only some nine months after they were married. I think the conflict in the dates alone should have been enough to cause a little more serious consideration to be given to these two young people.

Once again the detective in the case is Ernest Gordon Etheridge. I referred to Mr. Etheridge's evidence and what I thought of its reliability in a previous debate; therefore I am not going to go into that.

Will you call it six o'clock, Mr. Speaker?

At six o'clock the house took recess.

Topic:   JOSEPH RICARDO BOUZIANE
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AFTER RECESS


LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

What is the relationship be- The house resumed at eight o'clock, tween what the hon. gentleman is now saying -

and the bill that is before the house? RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING

Topic:   JOSEPH RICARDO BOUZIANE
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?

Some hon. Members:

None.

Topic:   JOSEPH RICARDO BOUZIANE
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CCF

Erhart Regier

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Regier:

Mr. Speaker, in this case we have a very young man indeed. At the time of the hearing before the committee in the other place Mr. Joseph Ricardo Bouziane was only 20 years old. At the time of his marriage it is obvious that he was 19 years of age. He was married on August 27, which is just a little over 18 months ago. I feel this calls for

Topic:   JOSEPH RICARDO BOUZIANE
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ESTABLISHMENT OF COMMITTEE ON RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING OWNED, OPERATED AND CONTROLLED BY THE GOVERNMENT


The house resumed consideration of the motion of Mr. Marler: That a sessional committee on railways and shipping owned, operated and controlled by the government, be appointed to consider the accounts and estimates and bills relating thereto of the Canadian National Railways, the Canadian National



(West Indies) Steamships, and Trans-Canada Air Lines, saving always the powers of the committee of supply in relation to the voting of public moneys; and that the said committee be empowered to send for persons, papers and records and to report from time to time and that, notwithstanding standing order 67 in relation to the limitation of the number of members, the said committee to consist of Messrs. Bell, Byrne, Carter, Cavers, Follwell, Fulton, Gauthier (Lake St. John), Gillis, Hahn, Hamilton (Notre Dame de Grace), Hamilton (York West), Hanna, Harrison, James, Johnston (Bow River), Knight, Lavigne, Legare, McCulloch (Pictou), Mitchell (Sudbury), Murphy (Westmorland), Nowlan, Power (Quebec South), Richardson, St. Laurent (Temiscouata), and Weaver.


PC

George Clyde Nowlan

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Nowlan:

Mr. Speaker, at five o'clock I was preparing to conclude my remarks with respect to the Canadian National Railways, but I realized it would be unfair to the minister if I did so because he would have to start to reply in perhaps a moment or two, which would not have given him an opportunity to deal with the matter. So out of consideration for him, a consideration which I have shown many times in the past, I carried on until five o'clock. I shall occupy the time of the house for only a moment or two more.

I have dealt with various matters affecting the operations of the Canadian National. There are of course many other matters to be dealt with at this time, but they can be dealt with in committee. Unfortunately I will not be present during the sittings of the committee and shall have to leave this to my colleagues, who I am sure will raise these matters.

There is one matter on which I should like to comment before concluding, and I realize that this has often been a cause of rising blood pressure on the part of the minister in the past. I want him to understand at this time that this matter is not being dealt with facetiously, it is being dealt with seriously. Sometimes when the minister thinks I am being facetious he drops his rapier and reaches behind for his bludgeon. He is generally more effective with his rapier than with his bludgeon.

I should like to refer for one moment to the William Carson. I am not going to do this in the way in which I have referred to it in the past, as I am sure this matter will be dealt with in the committee when the minister, Mr. Gordon, and the Canadian National officials will have a field day in which they can explain what has happened, what is happening and what is likely to happen in connection with this ferry. I suggest seriously to the minister that if it should transpire that it is not possible to operate the ferry as had been envisaged when the matter was first considered, if in other words we are going to see next summer a repetition

12, 1957 2133

Committee on Railways and Shipping of what we went through last summer, in view of the fact that the Bluenose now operating between Bar Harbor and Yarmouth is doing such a remarkably good job but is being taxed to its limit, it might be possible to take the William Carson off its present run and put it on that service to supplement the service being provided by the Bluenose.

I know the minister will welcome any favourable comment I can make with respect to the Bluenose. I want to be fair, because I believe they have finally overcome all the difficulties they encountered including missing worm gears, twisted propellers and so on. That boat is doing a remarkably good job between Nova Scotia and Maine.

I feel that credit should be given where credit is due and I want to commend the minister upon the reduction in rates on trucks that was made in answer to the pleas which were heard in the house last year, and which enabled Nova Scotia farm products to be carried to the New England states and possibly on to Ontario and Quebec at lower rates than prevailed during the summer. My one criticism would be that the rates were put into effect too late in the season. It may be that the minister will have the figures in front of him and will be able to say that the reduction did not result in increased business and that the department is not impressed with the arguments which were made. When the rates were lowered I think the minister said it was to be an experiment and he would wait to see the results. I hope the results are satisfactory to the department.

I would urge that this be repeated this year, but that the reduction in rates be inaugurated at an earlier period in the season. If the department is disappointed because of the amount of business obtained through the reduction I would suggest to the minister, without wanting to transgress on the jurisdiction of either the Minister of Finance or-the Minister of Agriculture, that there is a really complicated problem being encountered in the sale of agricultural products in the United States market because of the-premium on the Canadian dollar.

I am sure some of us were shocked to read-today that an all-time high had been reached, It is not particularly profitable to ship farm products into the United States with that premium and receive United States dollars. The result has been that this type of business has not been as profitable to the farmer as ordinarily it would be. But I do contend that the minister and the department deserve credit for having inaugurated this experiment. I am anxious to hear what the minister will say when he speaks later this evening.

Committee on Railways and Shipping

There is only one other matter I wish to refer to in passing, and this will be done very briefly. I may be slightly out of order, as perhaps this does not come within the ambit of this committee. We are all very much concerned about the recommendation of the Gordon commission that there be an inquiry into the transportation facilities of the maritimes and into the Maritime Freight Rates Act. This is not the time to discuss this in detail, but it is a most vital problem to the maritimes at the moment. The operation of the Canadian National Railways during the present or in future years must be predicated upon the results of such inquiries and the legislation which may be brought in as a result.

A definite recommendation has been made that the whole transportation problem of the maritime provinces be investigated, and that recommendation should be implemented immediately. This is something which vitally affects the minister's department and the Canadian National Railways, and I think it should be at least borne in mind when this committee is set up. I am sure many inquiries will be made in committee of the departmental officials, Mr. Gordon and others as to what can be done in that regard.

I think that concludes the comments I want to make at this time. As I said, there are many things that could be raised, but most of them can be dealt with in a detailed way in the committee. I am sure that as it has in the past, this committee will serve a most useful purpose by its inquiry into the operations of the railway system and the steamship lines, and will make recommendations which I hope will be implemented at least in part to the good of the people of the maritimes.

Topic:   ESTABLISHMENT OF COMMITTEE ON RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING OWNED, OPERATED AND CONTROLLED BY THE GOVERNMENT
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PC

William Marvin Howe

Progressive Conservative

Mr. W. M. Howe (Wellingion-Huron):

Mr. Speaker, I should like to join with those who have spoken on this resolution which has to do with the transportation companies owned and operated by the government. I would like to go along with some of the remarks made by other hon. members who have spoken, including the hon. member for Perth (Mr. Monteith) in connection with the policy which has been adopted. Western Ontario and this part of Canada owes its development down through the years to the railroads that go to make up that great organization, the Canadian National Railways. I well remember the feeling that was stirred up last year when it was said that the mail contracts were going to be taken away from most of the railroads in our district, because so many of the people felt this was the thin end of the wedge-by the way, these mail contracts represented almost one-third

IMr. Nowlan.]

of the total revenue of those railroads-and that eventually the railroads would all be shut off and the lines to Kincardine and Southampton would be abandoned.

In that district we have many urban municipalities which are hoping that one day this idea of decentralizing industry and such things will lead to American and British companies coming to Canada and setting up new industries in these communities. I could cite many advantages in doing so, such as better living conditions and labour conditions that would be advantageous to companies doing that, and it would also be of great benefit to the railroad. I understand that the railroads do have a department to try to decentralize industry, to send industry out to districts such as that in which I live so these smaller communities may benefit from the advantage of having factories in their areas; but if these railroad lines are abandoned, and the service is cut off, the chances of these communities ever getting industry is pretty well done away with because most industries of any size demand a rail service.

In connection with some of the services that have been cut off, I may say they have cut off the passenger service from Palmerston to Durham. For two weeks they ran the same train with the same crew at the same time; but the caboose fell apart, or something. They put the same coach back on that mixed train and ran it up and down over that line with the same crew, but they would not let any of the people who went down to the station get on the coach and ride as passengers.

I don't know whether that is good public relations or what it is, but there were a few people who would have liked to travel on that train; the coach was there, and I don't see why they were not allowed to travel. Having been raised in a small railroad centre which, I can remember, was a very busy centre at one time with hundreds of men working in the freight sheds and in the shops, I naturally regret that this should have dwindled to a mere handful of men carrying on this work, and I find myself asking why the railroads should have lost all that business. I sometimes feel, as the hon. member for Perth indicated he felt, that if the railways improved the service up there they could get back a lot of the business in that district.

I was reading an article in a Canadian national magazine that came to our desks yesterday about a new train they were investigating in Sweden called the "Kort, Lag and Latt"-"Short, low and light"-and in this article it says:

The story behind the KLL is a familiar one. Alarmed by diminishing passenger returns, the state

railways took a hard second look at existing rolling stock, found that it had grown too fat and frilly.

After all, I do feel that if the railroads improved the service and gave a more specialized service they could get back a lot of this business. The final paragraph of this article says this:

With a polite bow in the direction of other lightweight builders, the Swedes are careful to say that the KLL is custom-built for local conditions inside a country that is only slightly bigger than the state of California, where quick turnaround and a flexible consist become of paramount importance.

But they make no secret of their belief that they've gone a step further-and in the right direction-than anybody else in the lightweight field.

I sometimes wonder how much investigation and research is being done by the railroads in this connection. We have heard about the trains that are being used on some of the branch lines and which are giving wonderful service, and I feel that if they were adopted more universally on branch lines many more people would travel on them. As the hon. member for Perth indicated, people are not too happy about driving their cars from outlying districts into the city of Toronto today because of traffic and parking conditions, and if they could get good service from the railroads I believe many people would go back to that type of transportation.

The railroads may say that the passenger service provides only a small part of the revenue, but I feel this is the same as any other kind of business; you don't make 100 per cent profit on everything you do. Yesterday we were talking about public relations with regard to a bill which was before the house, and I sometimes feel that if the railroads took this question of public relations more seriously they would do better. Sometimes they do not seem to realize that a man travelling in one of these old coaches may be a furniture manufacturer with a factory in one of these areas, and after one of these rides in not too pleasant circumstances he may say, "If this is the kind of service they are going to give me, my freight is going by road".

There is another idea that occurs to me, and that is with regard to a circular that came in today concerning "piggyback" transportation. I do feel that is something which could be given a great deal of research and investigation by the railroads. It is being used now from Toronto to Montreal, and it might become more universal. If we look at its origin, it seems that away back in 1855 the Halifax-Truro railway, a line built by the Nova Scotia government, inaugurated "piggyback" for the transportation of farmers' wagons.

A lot of the business that used to go on in the community where I lived was concerned

Committee on Railways and Shipping with stock. At 5.30 every day a stock train went out of that town, stock that had been brought in on the branch lines. That business is all being carried by truck today. Perhaps if the railroad went into this "piggyback" business some arrangement could be made whereby these stock trucks could be carried "piggyback" to Toronto and be moved from there to the stockyards.

However, I do feel that the railroads have an important place in the life of these smaller communities, and I hope the railroad companies will consider the suggestions I have made and take a second look at these small branch lines, because they mean a great deal to the people in those districts.

Topic:   ESTABLISHMENT OF COMMITTEE ON RAILWAYS AND SHIPPING OWNED, OPERATED AND CONTROLLED BY THE GOVERNMENT
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March 12, 1957