Mr. Harkness:

The minister, as I say, disavowed the segment principle entirely and tried to throw as much ridicule as he could on the hon. member for York West and myself for advancing it, and for expressing surprise that it was not still part of Canadian policy.

Supply-Northern Affairs As a matter of fact there was something which appeared in the newspapers about two weeks after the debate took place-it was just at the end of the last session-which pointed out that in some book that is put out by the minister's own department what we had maintained in regard to the segment principle was what was being maintained in this book.

In any event, I would like to know if the minister has had any change of heart in regard to that particular matter.

Mr. Lesage:

I just told you what the policy was.

Mr. Harkness:

Well, perhaps the minister realizes that he was much too vehement last year in disclaiming any territorial control over this area immediately north of our mainland, and now he wants to get off the hook.

Mr. Lesage:

Mr. Chairman, I am sorry but I cannot let the hon. member put into my mouth things that I never said last year. I said that we did not claim the open seas in either liquid or frozen form, but that we claim as Canadian all land within that sector up to the north pole.

Mr. Hardie:

Everything north of the

Northwest Territories is Hardie's land.

Mr. Harkness:

In any event, these estimates will be under discussion after today, particularly the northern territories branch, and we will have plenty of time to look up exactly what the minister did say, and also some of those articles in regard to the matter which were written afterwards, and I think they will show that what he said was essentially what I have been maintaining.

Now I come to another matter. I have, for the past two years, been making the same complaint each year, when these estimates were up for consideration, in regard to the method of tendering which has been followed in this department. I spoke of it at some considerable length last year, pointing out that the method of tendering was very much open to criticism in the light of the methods used by the Department of Public Works, Defence Production, and so forth, in that, generally speaking, public tenders were not called for and tenders were not opened in public. So I was very glad to see that when the construction of gondola lifts in the Banff and Jasper national parks was finally agreed to some time in the past few months, apparently, an announcement was made that these would be put out to public tender-the first time as far as I know that this has taken place in connection with any works in the parks.

I am, as I say, glad that the minister apparently has had a change of heart with regard to the tendering system at least as

Supply

Northern Affairs far as these three projects are concerned. However, I did receive a letter just yesterday from a resident of Banff in connection with the matter in which some concern was expressed whether or not the newspaper announcements that had been made were actually correct because the notice put in the newspapers inviting tenders made no mention whatever of the fact that the tenders would be publicly opened. I should like the minister to reassure us that that actually will be done, that the sort of aura of secrecy which has prevailed in the department in the past as far as tenders are concerned will in the case of these three gondola lifts at least be done away with and the tenders will be opened in public, and that the aura of mystery in connection with tenders in this department in these instances will be brought to an end.

I would hope too that tenders of all kinds involving work, supplies and so forth for the department will in the future be on the same sort of basis as they have been for some time in defence production, public works and other departments and will in all cases be public tenders which will be advertised so that everybody will have an opportunity to tender and not just those people on a selected list, which has been the case up to now in the department. I hope that all tenders will be opened in public as has been the case in these other departments.

The Chairman:

I am extremely sorry to interrupt the hon. member but it is my duty to advise him that his time has expired.

Mr. Herridge:

Mr. Chairman, the minister's department ranges over a great expanse of time and history, much more so, I think, than any other department of government. Some of the minister's officials are concerned with the fossils of the pre-Cambrian era and others are making plans in connection with the welfare of the Eskimos which will not likely mature for another hundred years. Therefore I think it is quite safe to say that this is a most interesting department dealing with human and natural history and the administration of human beings and things connected therewith. It is an interesting department under the supervision, I think all of us will admit, of a very versatile and keen minister. But he is fortunate indeed to be supported by a very well qualified, capable, hard working and loyal staff.

When the items come under consideration I will have a few words to say in connection with national parks, water resources, northern administration, wild life and tourist bureau and also a few remarks in connection with the proposals for the development of the Columbia, but at this time I am going

to relate my remarks principally to the forest branch of the minister's department. This is one branch in which I feel somewhat at home as I have lived in the woods all my life and expect to end my days in the woods.

During recent years there has been a great expansion of the lumber and allied industries in Canada. With that expansion has come an increasing awareness of the great importance of the forest industry in the economic life of Canada, and because of that prominent leaders in the forest industry, in industry in general and a good number of organizations consider that the time is ripe for a department of forestry to be established and that the forest industry of Canada is too important to continue as a branch of a larger department. When one considers the vast administration that comes under the jurisdiction of the minister, one can readily realize that not only would the forest industry benefit by having a department created to administer its affairs but other branches in this department would, I am quite sure, benefit from the greater specialization and attention that would come to them.

In that connection I want to quote from a summary of the panel on forestry objectives presented at the resources conference in Ottawa on Friday, April 23, 1954. Mind you, this summary is the result of very informed people in the industry expressing their opinions before that important conference. The part I wish to quote reads as follows:

While our forests are and will continue to be administered by provincial governments, they nevertheless make an important contribution to the federal revenue-

I notice the Minister of National Revenue has disappeared.

-and many of the problems affecting their management are of national scope and significance, and the need for increased federal assistance in connection with forest development and protection programs was emphasized. While there is no factual information readily available on the over-all amount of taxes that have been paid into the federal treasury by the various units of the forest industry, a perusal of the published reports of some units of the industry shows that the payments are in very sizeable amounts, and a rough estimate suggests that over the past decade the total comes to well over $8 billion. On the other hand, a review of the annual federal expenditures reveals that only very small amounts have been expended on forestry.

That there has been a lack of concern for forestry matters by the federal government was suggested by Mr. Johnson when he drew attention to the fact that although there is a department of mines and a Department of Agriculture at Ottawa, there is no department of forestry, and that forestry matters are administered by a branch in the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources. He pointed out that the name of the department under which the forestry branch has been administered at various times in the last decade or two since it was originally set up in the old department of the interior has been changed

several times, and that the closest reference to forestry in the departmental name was that of "national resources".

I think that summary clearly expresses the opinion of people who have a great interest in the forest industry, who have a full appreciation of its value to the economic life of Canada and are not given to making unreasonable requests to governments. I suggest that the minister and his colleagues give serious consideration to this matter.

To indicate the growing importance of the forest industry at the present time, may I say that according to the figures given to me the average production of the forest industry in the years 1926 to 1929 was $437 million annually. The total production of the forest industry in 1953 amounted to $1,988 million. That shows the tremendous increase. Taking wages, average wages paid per year between 1926 and 1929 amounted to $205 million a year. Wages paid in 1953 amounted to $1,099 million.

Owing to the condition of the overseas market particularly, and the market in the United States, there is a slight lessening of capital investment in the forest industry in Canada, but even this year the forest industry in Canada expects to spend somewhere between $62 million and $65 million on plant expansion. Now, that indicates to me the importance of the industry and the need for a special department of government to administer the forest industry in Canada in its relation to the federal government, particularly in view of the very large contribution made to the federal exchequer at this time by the industry.

Having said that, I want to refer to one or two other matters. There is a gradual improvement in the recognition by this government of the importance of the forest industry to the Canadian people. This improvement comes as a result of the representations from various organizations, from the industry itself and from other public bodies. The improvement is almost snaillike in pace. First of all, after a good number of years the government finally proposed the Canada Forest Act. It was a step forward, and indicated the government's growing interest in the development of the forest industry in Canada. Then, after a bit more urging, pushing and shoving, this federal government made certain grants to the provinces, by agreement, for forest inventories. Then, further grants were made for reforestation. They are all to the good because you cannot tell where you are in the forest industry until you know what you have got in timber stock. I was glad to know that last year the government was providing funds for 82715-126i

Supply-Northern Affairs further forest inventory surveys in this country. There is certainly a necessity for continued expansion of funds for reforestation and forest management because without keeping your capital intact your industry will soon start to decline.

The industry and representative organizations pointed out to the government the great importance of forest protection from fire in this country. This is essential; in fact, I think it is the first and most important thing upon which the larger sums should be spent. I have mentioned before that I have had some experience with forest fires. I was in charge of a crew attempting to fight a fire when I saw a hundred million feet of timber consumed in four hours. As a result of a high wind, a patch of timber some three miles wide and 15 miles long was totally destroyed in about four hours. When you see things of that sort, you realize what a devastating effect fire can have on the forest resources of this country. I have had similar experiences on a number of occasions, but that was the worst one. Since that time I have always been particularly interested in adequate forest protection against fire. I was very pleased that finally the government again responded to the requests of forest organizations and the industry to grant this year, I understand, a half million dollars to be used in co-operation with the provinces for expansion of forest protection services. This is an excellent start, but it is not sufficient. However, I am glad that the government has started in that direction.

In this connection I want to quote from the summary of the National Forestry Conference, 1956, which was held at Winnipeg and at which the minister made a most interesting speech, a copy of which was later supplied to me. I read it with great interest. I shall have some reason to quote a section of that speech some time in another debate. The summary reads:

The announcement by the Hon. Jean Lesage that forest fire prevention appropriations had been approved by his department to provincial departments of lands and forests is considered a "milestone" in forest management progress.

It has taken a long time to go that mile, though.

Forest inventory and reforestation money has been available for several years under this legislation. However, the failure in providing, until now federal source money for forest fire prevention, the most important item, has been difficult to comprehend.

I agree with that statement.

The announcement of this partnership between the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources and the provincial departments now permits an effective attack on the national forest fire problem.

Supply-Northern Affairs

As I said before, it is only a start and I do hope the government will consider increasing this fund because it is invested in a very good cause in assisting the provinces to provide more forest protection against fire.

Before concluding, Mr. Chairman, I want to have a word or two to say about research which comes under the forest branch of the minister's department. Once again I must express my appreciation, and the appreciation of a good number of people I know in the industry, of the excellent work being done by the forest products laboratory of this branch and other research of which the branch has charge. The research being done in utilization, into equipment for mills, into the development of different processes and so on is very valuable to the forest industry in this country. Very few people, in fact, realize what a contribution a relatively few men in the forest branch of the minister's department are making to the forest production of this country now and in the future. Here again, I am expressing the view of a good number of people in the industry who are not given to making irresponsible demands on the government; people with their feet on the ground, who are convinced that there should be a greatly increased expenditure in research under the forest branch of the minister's department.

Before I say anything in that connection, I want to pay tribute to the work done by private industry so far as forest products research is concerned. I think the research carried on by the pulp and paper research institute has made an excellent contribution. The work being carried on now under the minister's supervision, and the work being carried on by private industry across this country, is an illustration of the excellent team work that can be established-I know they exchange information regularly and continually-by a public administration and private operations.

Now, with respect to this research question I want to quote from an address given by Mr. Lowell Besley, chairman of the Woodlands Research department of the pulp and paper research institute of Canada. This address was given before the national forestry conference in Winnipeg, September 17, 1956. I read this whole address with a great deal of interest, and I think it is a very meaty affair. In support of what I am saying now, and in support of my plea for larger funds to be devoted to research under the forestry branch of the minister's department, I want to quote this paragraph;

Underlying all growth and improvement in our forestry practice is a strong program of research and experimentation to provide the basic facts for intelligent management. The federal forestry branch has been carrying on useful research for a number of years. Today, it has a well balanced program

which recently has been revamped by setting up well-thought-out objectives in an integrated approach.

Its main weakness is that it is far too modest for the job immediately ahead. It must be refinanced on a much more generous basis if the forestry branch is going to be able to furnish soon enough the answers which will be urgently required in the critical period ahead as we pass from reliance upon the past growth of centuries in our virgin forests to dependence upon the future growth of forests managed by man.

I think that puts the case very well indeed. We in Canada generally, even in British Columbia, are emerging from the period where we are cutting virgin timber to a greater extent and going to the period where we are cutting what is known as second growth, and more and more from forests managed by man. As we enter that stage the more evident it becomes there must be increased research if we are to have satisfactory forest management, satisfactory forest development, and an efficient utilization of the greatest portion of the tree possible. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I do urge the minister to give consideration to the opinion of the organizations representing the industry, the Canadian forestry association and the many individuals who know what they are talking about.

In closing this portion of my remarks I just wish to repeat my three main pleas: First, consideration for the establishment of a department of forestry within this government which we consider is necessary to properly serve the forest industry of Canada; second, increased grants to the provinces for forest fire protection, which is simply another way of asking the federal government to protect its own equity in the forests which are held in the name of the crown in the right of the provinces; third, give consideration to the necessity for increased expenditures for research in order to make certain that that investment is utilized to the best advantage.

Here we have an industry with an annual production at the present time of over $2,000 million. I am not sure of the latest figures, but there may be more than that. It is an industry producing between 10 per cent and 12 per cent of the national income. Surely, such an industry is entitled to the consideration which the representatives of the industry, and many other Canadians, are asking this government to give it at this time.

The previous speaker, the hon. member for Calgary North, made some reference to the government's proposal with respect to the Columbia river basin. Naturally, as the member whose riding straddles the greatest area of the Columbia-that is the only way I can get the greatest in-I am interested in this question, but I am going to confine my remarks on this very important subject to the item when it comes before the committee.

Mi. Gillis: Mr. Chairman, I am not going to hold the item up unduly, but I should like to say a few words on an important matter on this first item. The minister will recall the bill that he introduced in the house a few days ago dealing with the question of setting up two separate museums in the city of Ottawa. It was challenged by the hon. member for Eglinton on the ground that it was not in conformity with the resolution and he was quite right. However, I did like the wording of the bill much better than I do the one before us at the present time. If Bill No. 161 had in it powers which would enable the minister to promote other museums across the country I would not be raising this question at this time. The matter I am talking about is one that I had some correspondence with the minister over within the last few months. It is a matter that is of particular interest to my own community. The minister's records will indicate that a few months ago I wrote to him and sent him a resolution emanating from the Marconi sports club located in the town of Glace Bay. That club was largely responsible for putting on a drive a few years ago for the erection of a memorial at the site where Marconi sent his first trans-Atlantic message across the ocean. They were successful in promoting the establishment of a modest museum there commemorating the life and work of Marconi in that area. A year ago the minister was down in the riding of Cape Breton north to open a building to commemorate the life and work of the late Alexander Graham Bell in that area.

Now, the type of building that this particular club, not only the club but a lot of the mine workers' local unions, are interested in on that site is a building along the lines of one established at Baddeck last year to commemorate the life of Alexander Graham Bell. It would not be a great expenditure. I would remind the minister that not only that area but many areas across Canada have important historic sites that could be very well developed into small museum setups to gather together many of the relics and tokens that are available to commemorate certain activities in different areas. I think this one in particular is very important. The work done by Marconi in that area is very well demonstrated by the many relics and things that are left behind. His home was there for example. He erected the first towers in that particular town to transmit the messages. Well, the home and the building that he lived in are still there. They are occupied; they are in good shape. A lot of the furniture that was used in his home, including the bed that he slept in, is in that area, and a lot of the stuff could be gathered

Supply-Northern Affairs up provided that there was a suitable place to house it. It would be a good tourist attraction.

I know it took us years to convince the department and the historic sites board that Louisburg, for example, should be recognized by the historic sites and monuments board. Eventually, that was done. A lot of work was done there. There is a museum that gathers together all of the relics of Louisburg. I have been there a few times during the summer months and I saw tourists from all over Canada and the United States, hundreds of cars, gathered at Louisburg. I saw the tourists going through the building and asking for the literature that is available there. That would be equally true of the site that I am talking about at the present time. I wrote to the minister. He answered my letter and said that the matter was on the agenda of the next meeting of the historic sites board. But what I am particularly interested in is the bill to replace the one which the minister withdrew. The one that we shall have up for consideration is too restrictive in comparison with the bill that was withdrawn. The bill that was withdrawn gave power to the minister to promote or establish museums in other parts of Canada. You have deleted that from the bill which is on the order paper at the present time.

Mr. Lesage:

Mr. Chairman, I am sure the hon. member will not mind if I interrupt him at this point.

Mr. Gillis:

I am listening.

Mr. Lesage:

The Baddeck museum was established as a historic park and what the hon. member proposes would not be considered a museum but a historic site. That is why the matter has been referred to the historic sites and monuments board.

Mr. Gillis:

Thank you, sir. I raised the question because I consider that the present bill restricts the powers of the minister to carry on with that type of activity. That was the very point on which the hon. member for Eglinton based his objection to the original bill, because the resolution did not forecast the wording of the bill as it appeared at that time.

I am quite satisfied with the minister's explanation and I look forward with a great degree of pleasure to having him come down there in the foreseeable future to dedicate the building which will be erected in due course as a monument to the life and work of Marconi.

Mr. Barnett:

Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a few comments in the light of what was said by the hon. member for Cape

Supply-Northern Affairs Breton South in regard to what was contained in the bill which we no longer have.

I was interested when I saw that particular part of the bill which has disappeared from the order paper because only a few days before I happened to note rather casually a reference to a proposal for the development in British Columbia of a museum which would deal specifically with the history and background of our native Indian peoples. I do not have the exact reference with me but I have described my recollection of it.

Mr. Lesage:

Mr. Chairman, that again

would be a historic site. Is the hon. member referring to Fort Langley?

Mr. Barnett:

No. As I read the dispatch it was some other project and those who were interested in it, as I recall the situation, had some hope that they might be able to secure financial assistance from the federal authorities in developing it. When I saw the original bill I wondered if the words "development of other museums" would refer to projects of that nature. Has the minister any information concerning this particular project?

As I have explained, I came across it in my casual reading. I should like to have the minister offer an explanation if he has any further information on it. In view of what the hon. member for Cape Breton South has just said I thought this might be an appropriate place to raise that point and to say my reaction to the bill we had but do not now have-I am leaving aside the technicalities which were involved in the point of order raised this afternoon-was rather a favourable one.

Mr. Lesage:

Mr. Chairman, perhaps I might be permitted to reply immediately to the question raised by the hon. members for Cape Breton South and Comox-Alberni. Under the act governing the activities of the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources the minister has the power, with the approval of the governor in council and of parliament, to financially assist other museums. The part of the original bill No. 161 that does not appear in the reprint of Bill No. 161 concerned only the power to establish and maintain other national museums. That refers to museums other than the two which are mentioned in the bill, but it has nothing to do with the establishment and maintenance of historic sites or assistance to museums across Canada. The four lines which were deleted related only to other national museums to be established and maintained by the department.

The Deputy Chairman:

Just before I recognize the hon. member for Brandon-Souris, I am going to request the committee, if they

[Mr. Barnett.l

are going to pursue the matter of what I perhaps might be permitted to describe as the decentralization of culture, the holdings of museums in various parts of Canada, that they make their points if they possibly can without bringing frequently into this discussion a bill which is on the order paper and which I feel should not be debated on this particular item of the estimates.

I am quite frank to admit that no harm has been done and no one has attempted to debate the merits of that bill, but we might find ourselves in the position of establishing a dangerous precedent which might be used against us.

Mr. Dinsdale:

Mr. Chairman, in entering the discussion at this stage I do so in the hope that I may be able to encourage the minister to make a further general statement concerning the current operations of his department. I was disappointed, when the discussion of his estimates opened, that the minister did not seize the opportunity to bring before the people of Canada the important developments that must be taking place in the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources.

This department was reorganized in its present form quite recently, I think about 1953. Unfortunately the only occasion in this house when we have a chance of obtaining certain information from the minister relating to the activities of his important department is during the discussion on the first item of his estimates. I trust as a result of some of the things that have been said here this evening that when the minister replies to this general discussion he will take the opportunity to place before the committee and also before the people of Canada the current activities of his department particularly as they relate to northern affairs and national development.

It is commonplace to say in regard to these matters that there is a lack of knowledge, particularly concerning the activities in the Canadian Arctic. Indeed, I think we could almost say there is abysmal ignorance concerning the activities there.

In the past few years we have been busy with a substantial defence development in the north and there has been a tendency to obscure somewhat the nature of that development in the interests of national security; but I would venture to say that were the information available with regard to the two or three years during which we have been engaged in northern Canada in the building of the mid-Canada radar screen and the distant early warning radar screen we would find that a significant impact has been made upon the general development in that part of Canada.

It is important to Canadians everywhere that we keep abreast in terms of knowledge of our activities in the north. Indeed in our national song one of the lines is, "O Canada, the true north strong and free," and notwithstanding the sentiment of that verse most of us crowd just as close to the southern border as we possibly can. I say it is important that Canadians generally take an increasing interest in the development of the north because we are one of the two major powers in the world today with an Arctic frontier. Canada and the U.S.S.R. have this at least in common, namely that a large part of our land area lies within the Arctic. It is commonplace to observe that up to the present time Canada lags behind considerably as compared with the U.S.S.R. in the development and the exploitation of its Arctic area.

We have had discussions on this particular point in past years. It is appreciated, of course, that we have started late in this development. It is also appreciated that our particular type of democratic organization does not permit aggressive activity similiar to that exercised by the U.S.S.R. in recent years. But still, when we recall that our population in the Canadian Arctic stands today at some 30,000 and that in the similar area in the Soviet the population is over 4 million, I think it will be readily seen that we must take vigorous action in this regard. I trust that the minister will take the house into his confidence and will give us the information that does not seem to be available from any other source with regard to this particular type of development.

Mr. Lesage:

I spoke two or three weeks ago. I made a speech two or three weeks ago on northern affairs.

Mr. Dinsdale:

On the estimates?