January 18, 1957

PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

What kind of thing?

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CCF

Robert Ross (Roy) Knight

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knight:

My hon. friend can make his speech, with such inspiration as he possesses, after I have finished.

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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

I will.

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CCF

Robert Ross (Roy) Knight

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knight:

Now I would like to paraphrase something I said some time ago because I think it is, perhaps, worthy of a reference even if I was the author.

Perhaps our pioneer preoccupation with primitive things or perhaps our progress towards our own independence and in material wealth has been so swift that our appreciation of Canadian greatness and the capabilities of her people has not kept pace. We ourselves are at last discovering that there is as much drama in the lives of the native Canadians as a basis for literature as there is in other people's lives. Our artists are beginning at last to realize that there is as much beauty in a prairie sunset or in the Quebec woods as there is in a European scene which it was once conventional to portray upon canvas.

And I pay here my tribute to the great advance made by French Canadian culture.

Investment in the promotion of Canadian arts- for as such I see the setting up of this Canada Council-would add to the enjoyment, the education and the culture of all Canadian people.

I can subscribe to that today just as well as on the day on which I said the words just quoted. One phase that I think is important is that some people who have had some

Canada Council

opportunities to allow their genius to grow have been drawn away from us by the lure of extra monetary reward in the United States, and that has meant a great national loss to us. They have been drawn away by the lack in Canada of high monetary reward and the lack of an opportunity to practice their profession under good conditions at home.

The Canada Council can do for the humanities and the arts what the national research council has done for the sciences. To my mind, the humanities have been neglected. I have always maintained that and I still do so. As far as specialization is concerned, I should like to say this to the government if I may presume to advise them. When they are looking for men for the foreign service, when they are looking for men to administer departments at home, I say to the government that the best and soundest education with which these people can start is an education in the humanities. I hope that it will then happen that these young men so equipped by their studies of the humanities will be able to take advantage of government scholarships so that they may be trained in those functions for which the government wants to make use of them later.

These are ideas that I have upon the question. There has been opposition. We have seen an example of it here today from the leader of the Social Credit party and their former leader, the senior member of that group. Personally I cannot understand their attitude. No man has ever accused me of communist tendencies or even near communist tendencies. If they did I would repudiate them as I have repudiated the communists publicly. Communists have opposed me in every election in which I have run and not even my hon. friends will find a communist under my bed.

I do not know what this fear is based upon. Perhaps it may be based upon fear of interference by governments with our intellectual freedom. Let us admit that there is a risk, but even if that is so we will have to take the risk. We cannot hold back progress forever because somebody suspects something about a communist having infiltrated or being mixed up with an organization. If we are going to abandon all our good works because a handful of communists may get into these organizations we are not going to progress very far. We cannot hold back on account of fear.

It surely will be admitted that there has been no interference with intellectual freedom produced by the federal grants to our universities. If there is, I have never even heard a suspicion or a word about it.

I have never even heard the subject mentioned. As far as I know, the federal authorities impose no conditions with regard to the spending of the money which they hand to the universities. I am not going to deal further with that argument.

I of course have claimed with respect to other types of education that there would be absolutely no interference in the curriculum or the administration of education where such grants were received, but that is not my subject today. I think there would be equal risk in taking money for the sponsorship of education or the sponsorship of culture-I do not like the word "culture" -from a private institution. I must say that I am glad that from now on the existence of drama festivals is not going to have to depend upon grants from the liquor interests of this country, something that we have seen happen in the past. Mind you, I do not wish to discourage the giving of grants by private industries or private philanthropists, but now we have got a medium through which these grants can be assigned to the place or places where they are most needed. I hope that this plan will not only not stop the intention to give such grants but will be an inspiration for private industry or philanthropists to put more money into a good cause.

Another disadvantage I can see with respect to private grants is that such grants are liable to come with some strings attached, although perhaps not very substantial strings. However, I can see that some firm that uses a great number of engineers, for instance, would pour money into a university or other institution of learning with the hope at least-and I would not be surprised that they would express it-that the money would be used to produce men whose services they could then use with great profit. I think that is natural. In other words, these grants would be made to students in a specialized field.

I have been saying for 12 years, and perhaps I do not need to tell hon. members again, that what we want is national sponsorship and effort. Another thing that occurs to me is that we need steady and continuous support of this sort of thing and not a spasmodic effort such as perhaps would be the result of private givings. A firm might give a quarter of a million dollars this year but you might not get any more for years to come. When we have a basis of continuous support we may hope to get somewhere.

I have already spoken much longer than I had expected to but the hon. member for

Peace River will have to take the responsibility for my wearying him to this extent. I am thinking now of how this council may be a potential means for the granting of scholarships. Throughout my life I have had a steady connection with the land that gave me birth. I have visited it a good many times and have kept in touch with people there, now, alas, too few. I have been convinced that no country in the world has made a finer contribution to its young people than has Great Britain so far as scholarships are concerned. Whether the figure is 70 per cent or 75 per cent is immaterial. My recollection is that in 1955 75 per cent of the students in the British universities were taking their studies with government support-

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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

Seventy-four per cent.

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CCF

Robert Ross (Roy) Knight

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knight:

-and that 70 per cent of the total amount of money spent by the universities in Great Britain was provided by the government. That still does not clear up the question asked by the hon. member for Greenwood.

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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

Seventy-four per cent is the exact percentage.

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CCF

Robert Ross (Roy) Knight

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knight:

The arts council in Great Britain has been a great success. There is no doubt about that. From the point of view of my philosophy and the philosophy of this C.C.F. group one important feature that I like is that bright young people, no matter what their financial circumstances, are provided with an opportunity to obtain an education. May I say that these scholarships have been given on only one basis, the basis of merit. They have a rigid system of competitive examinations, and it is a particular source of satisfaction to me that bright children of what are sometimes called humble families, who never could have hoped to get to university on their own resources, have been helped to go there and as a result Great Britain has the advantage of some of the brightest minds in that country. Their plan has brought benefits to many.

I said before that perhaps it is our newness that has been the cause of the disastrous neglect of the humanities and the social sciences. The government has been much more generous with purely scientific research. The need for defence programs may have had something to do with it. I am sure it has something to do with that tendency. We may be excused perhaps for being more impressed by the need for preserving our lives than by the need for the enrichment of our living. In my opinion we shall be obliged to strike a balance; and I think we can have some realization of both aims.

Canada Council

(Translation):

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LIB

André Gauthier

Liberal

Mr. Gauthier (Porineuf):

Mr. Chairman, I have a few words to say to indicate my support, modest as it might be, of the measure introduced this afternoon by the government. Somebody said this morning that it has been brought up rather abruptly; yet, everyone had heard about it for quite some time, had read much about it in the newspapers, so that members of this house should have expected that one day or the other, they would be called upon to consider this measure. Indeed, everyone had plenty of time to get ready, judging from the very interesting speeches I have heard here this afternoon.

I am convinced that the first concern of the government will not be, as our Conservative friends seem to fear, to appoint a Liberal as chairman of this council, just because he is a Liberal.

Too well do I know the Right Hon. Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) and his government to dread a political appointment to that position. I am always amused when my hon. friends opposite express fear of political influence in government appointments.

I have a pretty fair knowledge of political history since I have been sitting for already 30 years either in this house or in the provincial legislature; I know too well that party considerations are foremost in the minds of my hon. friends opposite when they are in power. The old story of the mote in one's brother's eye seems to apply in this case. Mr. Chairman . . .

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?

John (Jack) Henry Horner

Mr. Van Horne:

You do not believe that it is the primary concern of the Liberal party?

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LIB

André Gauthier

Liberal

Mr. Gauthier (Porineuf):

It has not been half as much the concern of the Liberal party as it has been that of the Conservative party throughout its history. If the hon. member would only read history, instead of taking up time to interrupt me, he would know a lot more about it and he would be able to speak far more intelligently than he does now.

Mr. Chairman, I felt that it was fitting to express a French Canadian point of view here this afternoon. I know some who would have been far better qualified than I am. Nevertheless, I have summoned forth all my courage in order to say something interesting, even though there may be some who will not find my remarks to their liking.

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The Canada Council, to my mind is timely. We could hardly have had it a hundred years ago. We could hardly have had it even twenty-five years ago because we were not yet ready for it.

Character and mentality must have reached maturity in certain fields before talent can find self-expression. Such endeavours should not be attempted too early. Consequently, I do believe that this measure is timely.

As regards French-speaking Canadians, it is true that our development in the arts has been gradual. I am thinking here of drama, music and the humanities. However I pay special tribute to commercial and classical colleges for the good education they have given us in these three fields, especially in that of the humanities. Quite often in the course of controversies in newspapers and magazines, some writers who do not see the use of studying dead languages blame our seminaries for clinging to the teaching of Greek and Latin. However, knowing languages and specially the roots of the French language, our educators are well aware that, in order to have a good knowledge of French, one must also have a knowledge of Greek and Latin roots. Even for English-speaking people, specially those whose origin goes back to Normandy, it is certain that the knowledge of Greek and Latin roots is a great help to anyone who wishes to understand and speak English really well.

That is why, Mr. Chairman, we should pay a well-deserved tribute to our classical colleges for continuing to teach the so-called dead languages, and be grateful to them for developing among French Canadians able talents which would probably have remained dormant. It is in the seminaries and the classical colleges that we see certain talents blossom out thanks to the vigilant and solicitous care of teachers in our classical colleges, thanks to the attention they give to the education of youth, and especially, to their great learning.

The mention of a few names should be sufficient. For instance in my district, that of Mgr. Camille Roy, and in the Montreal district those of Canons Chartier and Groulx, are examples in support of my statement. There are others, of course, but those are the three which come to my mind at this time. Those people are educators who have helped a great number of French Canadians gain a high degree of proficiency in the dramatic arts. More recently, there has been Rev. Father Legault, who trained the famous Compagnons de Saint-Laurent, a group that has won medals in all Canadian festivals and from which have come such distinguished actors as Gascon, Coutu and Groulx.

We even had, in the theatre, Fiench Canadian actors whose great talents have enabled them to grace the English stage. I shall mention only one, Paul Dupuis, who for years played on the stage in London. He is now back in Montreal and we have been very pleased to welcome him. Here is a man with a latin culture, with a French culture, who, nonetheless, has brought enjoyment, relaxation and satisfaction to a great number of English people who saw him on the stage or on films, or heard him on the radio.

I could mention a host of other artists, people like Plamondon, Jobin, Mercier, Simoneau, the Alaries and I take care not to forget a name for ever famous, a name whose renown has never been surpassed in the whole world, that of Madame Albani.

Ladies and Gentlemen-

Mr. Chairman, excuse me, it's a force of habit. Elections are coming and this most likely explains my lapsus linguae.

I believe, Mr. Chairman, that the French Canadian people will be pleased at the establishment of the Canada Council. I easily imagine that somewhere certain clouds will show up, bearing the words: "Keep watch upon autonomy, federal government should not interfere with education, and if song, the drama, the fiddle and the piano are part of education, there is danger that the federal government will interfere in the field of education."

I do not fear at all the interference of the federal government in the field of education; I can say so, I think, without causing offence to anyone, even the staunchest partisans of provincial autonomy.

I do not see either any danger in the payment, to universities, of grants such as have been offered by the Right Hon. Prime Minister in the speech he delivered not long ago. It is therefore my contention that the universities of the province of Quebec should accept those grants. I do not know why they did refuse them. They have no doubt their reasons; they may have excellent arguments but I think that we have, in the person of the Prime Minister and of the present members of his cabinet, strong enough arguments and a consistent enough record to be in a position to tell them that their fears are groundless. Universities should accept those grants which would help them go on with their magnificent work in the field to which they have devoted their efforts for such a long time in order to ensure the ever-growing success of education in the province of Quebec.

Oh, as somebody has said, I do know that the primary school may seem to be the solid foundation for the education of our young French Canadians. However, there is not only one stone in a building; there are several and all must be placed solidly and normally on top of one another, not only in the field of university education but also in the fields of primary and secondary education. When our universities and colleges need money, no autonomist outcry will be strong, powerful or sincere enough to prevent them from accepting the grants which the federal government wishes to make without any condition whatever.

A moment ago I was listening to the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Low) and the hon. member for Saskatoon (Mr. Knight) exchange a few pleasantries with regard to the danger of communist infiltration in this council which the federal government proposes to establish. I am convinced that we can make progress in the arts, social sciences and the humanities without any danger of communist deviation. I do know for a fact that the communist leaders a few years ago had asked some musicians to change their style of composition because it was not close enough to materialistic ideals. I do know too that certain historians or certain scientists such as Lysenko, have attempted to destroy some theories such as the Mendelian theory since they went against communist ideology and more especially communist dialectics. I hardly think that that is a danger at the present time in this country with regard to the Council which the federal government proposes to establish, since our leaders are not communists but good democrats. I know also that Canadians are at present sufficiently warned against communist dangers, possibly not all but most dangers, so that there will always be among us people who are sufficiently wide awake to prevent such an infiltration in a Council such as this.

(Text):

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PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Macdonnell:

Mr. Chairman, I would not have felt it to be unavoidable that the hon. member for Peace River and I should disagree as much on what he said this afternoon as we usually do on matters of financial discussion, but such was in fact the case. Yet there was one thing he said with which I found myself greatly in sympathy. In fact, there were two things. He said that you cannot buy culture. With that statement we can all agree.

Incidentally, I agree with the hon. member for Saskatoon in wishing that we could get another word. The word "culture" seems to have become highbrow. I have been looking up the dictionary to see whether we could get another word for it. There is a definition

Canada Council

which is not so exciting but which satisfies me much better; I refer to the expression "intellectual development". Incidentally, I was glad to hear the interesting definition of the word "humanities" that the Prime Minister gave us this morning, because it is not a word that carries its own meaning with it. I think it is well that we should have it in our minds.

The other thing in which I agree with the hon. member for Peace River is this. He seemed to fear, and I think it is a valid fear, that by stepping in with government funds we might blunt individual effort. I am quite sure that is not the intention at all, and I hope it will be possible to avoid completely such a danger because as we look about I think we shall agree that we find a good many instances in the world where a very high state of true culture has been arrived at with precious little money.

I was interested in what the Prime Minister said this morning, that in France, even before the revolution, they had the matter very much in their minds. I propose to read just a sentence from a speech made years ago by Sir James Barrie to the students at St. Andrews University. It is in praise of the Scots and, perhaps before reading it, I had better say I can do it without embarrassment because I myself am only 25 per cent genuine Scottish. He was speaking to the students and he was talking about the universities, and then he added this. I find it very interesting and I find it very true, because we all know that education in Scotland, largely due to the efforts of that very controversial character, John Knox, got right down to the grass roots, so to speak. This is what Barrie had to say to the students whom he was addressing, as recorded in a little book called "Courage". He said:

You come of a race of men the very wind of whose name has swept to the ultimate seas. Remember-

"Heaven doth with us as we with torches do,

Not light them for themselves ..."

Then he adds this:

Mighty are the universities of Scotland, and they will prevail. But even in your highest exaltations never forget that there are not four, but five. The greatest of them is the poor, proud homes you come out of, which said so long ago: "There shall be education in this land." She, not St. Andrews, is the oldest university in Scotland, and all the other are her whelps.

We will all agree that effort should not be blunted. I find myself sometimes questioning a little the tremendous obstacles that are pictured as facing the individual seeking education unless he is assisted by scholarships. I do not entirely accept that. I think there are a very great many people who can still do it for themselves, but I do remember this. I remember when I myself was an

Canada Council

undergraduate and had to go out for five months each summer to get the wherewithal to come back next winter. I remember that a man who was himself a real scholar, not just a make-believe, said "We will never have real scholars in this country while students have to take six months of the year away from their studies in order to get the means to come back to their studies."

I have always remembered that. I think it is true; and therefore, while I repeat that the doors will always be open to any man of sufficient energy-and of course genius triumphs over everything-nevertheless legislation and our ordinary way of life have to try to deal with those of us who are about the average. I think therefore we are entitled to take anxious thought to facilitate people in their efforts to reach university.

I want to say a word or two about universities. Of course it is commonplace to say that all of us who are concerned with university administration are greatly perplexed and sometimes even alarmed at the stories we have heard of the impending flood that is going to descend on us before long. One occasionally gets qualifications to that statement. I have run into two or three industrialists who have said to me, "You know, we have a lot of people working in our plants and doing jobs for which they do not need a full engineering course; not that the engineering course hurts them, but the jobs could be done very adequately by people with considerably less technical training." It is probably well known here that in the province of Ontario, at any rate, considerable progress has been made in setting up those technical schools. I think I am correct in saying there are four or five of them now, and the intention is to develop them still further.

Another stretching of our resources which is possible is the use of present buildings, using them not on a 4-hour or 5-hour a day basis, but on a 12-hour basis and 12 months of the year. I believe that studies to that end are going forward and that no doubt will affect the situation considerably.

I now want to ask two or three questions which the Prime Minister will perhaps answer later. We have been given very interesting and impressive figures as to the increase in the university population but that, of course, as has been pointed out, implies a very much larger increase in the population of secondary schools, that is to say a grade below. If we are going to have twice as many in the universities I presume that means we are going to have far more than twice as many in our secondary schools. I would like the Prime Minister to tell us something about that and whether that problem

[Mr. Macdonnell.l

has been taken into account, because it seems to me it will add vastly to the responsibilities of the universities themselves.

I noted also what the Prime Minister had to say about the limitation on the percentage of federal grant money which was to go into the construction of any one building, and that leads me to ask a broader question. I am reading now from paragraph (b):

The council shall establish a fund to be called the university capital grants fund, to which shall be credited the sum of $50 million, to be paid to the council by the Minister of Finance out of the consolidated revenue fund.

I take it that it is correct to say that in the past, apart perhaps from some cases of special buildings, for example astronomy or other special purpose buildings which were really federal buildings located on university grounds, any capital assistance to universities has come almost wholly from the provinces. That is true, I think, of the university with [DOT]which I am connected; and the question I wish to ask is where will the provinces come in in connection with these construction projects? Although I am subject to correction, of course, I got the impression as I listened to the Prime Minister this morning that the question of construction would be a matter between the university itself and this university capital grants fund.

The Prime Minister looks doubtful and perhaps he is going to correct that, but in any event I shall continue with my question and it is this. The council establishes this fund which will be called the university capital grants fund; that I take it is just a convenient means of crediting a separate fund. I am not quite clear in my own mind how far the council goes in decisions with regard to the nature of buildings, whether it is entirely a matter for the university, or whether the province comes in in any way. I think that will indicate the question in my mind, and perhaps it can be answered later on when the Prime Minister will no doubt have other questions to answer, too.

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CCF

Alexander Malcolm Nicholson

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Nicholson:

Mr. Chairman, before the resolution passes I want to express support for the important step it represents. I think the provision is not adequate, considering the problem confronting us, but having recognized the need for some action I know it will be possible for the government to increase the amount. I think the proposal that we should establish a Canada Council for the encouragement of the arts, humanities and social sciences is one which hon. members in this house should support.

I was interested in the comments made by the Prime Minister to the effect that we should look forward not only to Canadians going

abroad but to people from other lands coming to Canada. I am thinking of Terrance Gabora of Mikado, Saskatchewan. His grandparents came to Canada from the Ukraine at the beginning of the century and homesteaded out in the Canora district. At a very early age the grandson displayed an interest in the violin. His classmates and neighbours always received a great deal of pleasure every time this young chap had an opportunity of playing his instrument. At university he continued to devote time to his music and won a scholarship which took him to Paris and then to Vienna. He is now back in Austria in the general area where his grandparents and great grandparents lived. Last autumn he and his charming wife Gail Craig, who is a very accomplished singer, made a tour of the small communities in Saskatchewan that Terrance knew as a boy, and it gave our people a great lift to have these young Canadians coming back as such accomplished artists.

But the point I want to make is that the relatively poor people of Austria are providing a scholarship for this young Canadian to enable him to continue perfecting his art as a violinist, and I think most Canadians would agree that with our great resources we should not expect charity from the people of Austria to assist our young musicians to continue their studies.

When I think of these young people with their wonderful gifts I am disturbed about the prospects of their having to go to countries other than Canada in order to make a living, and I am hoping that the establishment of a Canada Council will result in encouraging many more young people like the Gaboras to go abroad to study. I also hope we will make plans to see that there is a place in the Canadian scene for such people when they have completed their training. I hope that a much larger number will be able to study abroad in addition to those who benefit from the generosity of people like Sir Cecil Rhodes.

This matter is perhaps of more interest to us in this parliament because the hon. member for Greenwood many years ago was a Rhodes scholar, as was the hon. member for St. Paul's, the hon. member for Kamloops and the Minister of Fisheries. They were all selected by the appropriate committees as the outstanding male students of the year, and had the privilege of three or four years of study in a very interesting centre of the world. I think we should look forward to a much larger number of young Canadians having the opportunities which these hon. members had when they were somewhat younger than they are today. I believe we 82715-27

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should also make funds available so that students from other countries may come to Canada.

In the discussion on this resolution I do not think enough attention has been focused on the serious crisis that confronts us in Canada in connection with maintaining our universities. I have before me the November 17, 1956, issue of the Financial Post, and in it I find an interesting report on the conference held in Ottawa last November. The Prime Minister made a reference to it, and I would like to comment on the dispatch written by J. B. McGeachy, the associate editor. I realize that the hon. member for Lethbridge has accused Mr. McGeachy of using the facilities of the C.B.C. to put across communist propaganda, but I do not think there is anything in this article with which the hon. member would seriously quarrel.

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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

Perhaps he is mending his ways a little.

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CCF

Alexander Malcolm Nicholson

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Nicholson:

I do not think the hon. member for Lethbridge will quarrel with the claim of Mr. McGeachy contained in the first paragraph of the report:

Canadian universities are starved tor funds, supported in too niggardly a fashion by both governments and private givers. Their staffs are overworked and underpaid. Their buildings and equipment are inadequate or soon will be. They have too few students who qualify intellectually and too many who don't.

Mr. McGeachy goes on to present some disturbing statistics. He estimates that 25 out of every 100 pupils in Canadian schools are mentally capable of deriving benefit from higher education, but points out that only 7 out of every 100 actually reach university. He explains this is a figure well below the United States average and still further below the Soviet level.

Of the seven only five belong to the abler 25 per cent minority.

In other words, two of the seven (or about 30 per cent of enrolment in the freshman year) come from the 75 per cent majority who would be classified as not suitable candidates for university degrees.

I suggest that this is a very serious Canadian problem, when we only have 5 of the 25 students in Canadian schools who have the mental qualifications permitted to proceed to university, while the other 20 are denied that right.

Mr. McGeachy says that everyone will accept, that it is not necessary, even desirable, that all the brightest minds of any era should go to university. He mentioned Henry Ford, Bernard Shaw and Sir Winston Churchill; none of them ever attended university. He suggests probably they would have flunked because of excessive originality. I think there

Canada Council

is no good reason why 20 out of 25 students in our schools who might become doctors, dentists or engineers, or take any other courses, should be denied the right to proceed to university.

Mr. McGeachy mentions Dr. MacKenzie, president of the University of British Columbia, who is one of the three university chiefs who tackled the financial problem in addresses, the other two being Principal Cyril James of McGill and Monsignor H. J. Somers of St. Francis Xavier. A good deal of space is devoted to the speeches of these three, but I will not take time to discuss them at the moment. It so happens that in the same issue of the Financial Post there is an article, the fourth in a series on Russia, by the editor, Ronald McEachern, this one dealing with education. I am sure the hon. member for Lethbridge will not suggest that the editor of the Financial Post is a communist or is trying to put across communist propaganda. I think that we should look at what Mr. McEachern says.

The tallest building in Europe is Moscow's university.

It isn't only tall. It's an enormous place stretching over a big land area.

He goes on to describe the laboratories, lecture halls, and various places of interest. The article continues:

Professors are heroes in Soviet society and the head of a university department is paid as much as the head of a big industry or a senior government official. Those are symbolic facts. Because the biggest industry in the Soviet today is education-not just education for children, youths and maidens, but education as a continuing process for adults.

About one fourth of the whole Soviet nation is studying-studying full-time in schools or engaged in formal part-time educational activity. About 30 million are in primary and secondary schools. About 2 million are in advanced specialist and technical schools. Another 2 million are in universities. And about 50 million adults were last year formally participating in some kind of education through night schools, university extension courses, and so forth.

For a nation which only 40 years ago was about half completely illiterate, this is quite an achievement.

Then he gives some other figures which are worth looking at. He gives the percentage in the universities in the U.S.S.R., Canada and the United States. In Canada, according to Mr. McEachern, we have 4.9 university students per thousand population; in the United States, 15, and in the U.S.S.R. 19.6. The hon. member for Greenwood asked my leader earlier today about the figures for the United Kingdom. The hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar did not have those figures available, but I contacted our bureau of statistics and found that they had figures for the United Kingdom. Their figures for Canada for 1953-54 were a bit lower than

those given by Mr. McEachern. Our bureau gave our percentage in 1953-54 as 4.2, and in the same year the percentage in the United Kingdom as 1.6.

He explained that in the United Kingdom quite a large number of students go to technical schools which are not included in the university statistics but I submit that we should have a look at these figures, 1.6 students per thousand in the United Kingdom and 4.2 or 4.9-we have two different sets of figures-for Canada, 15 for the United States and 19.6 for the U.S.S.R.

The hon. member for Saskatoon and the leader of this party stressed the fact that a much higher percentage of students in the United Kingdom than in Canada receive financial assistance. However, since only 1.6 per cent of your total population get to university, the fact that a larger percentage of those receive financial assistance than is the case in Canada does not get around the fact that a very large number of students in the United Kingdom never get a chance to go to university.

Mr. McEachern in this very interesting article on education in Russia is saying what others have said. Many hon. members heard the speech delivered by Mr. J. S. Duncan, then chairman and president of Massey-Harris-Ferguson Limited, when he spoke to the Canadian Club last year. A most interesting section of his speech was his discussion on education. He told us about his visit to the University of Moscow, and he was quite as extravagant as was Mr. McEachern when he described the central building as being 32 stories high with two other buildings 20 stories high on either side, and about their clearing away of 1100 acres of the slums in Moscow to build their university. He told about the accommodation for 8,000 students in residence and the meeting hall for 5,000.

Mr. Duncan then told us about visiting the Stalin works in Moscow. He joked about the name of the works, saying that he was not sure whether now it might be the Khrushchev works or the Bulganin works. He said that 40,000 men and women worked there, and that 10,000 or one-quarter of them, after working an 8-hour day, came back at 6.30 and studied until 10.30, three nights a week. Both Mr. McEachern and Mr. Duncan stress the fact that every place you went there was a feeling that education was going to be of great help. Mr. McEachern pointed out:

People of the western world may not like the creed that Soviet students are taught. We may find abhorrent some of the objectives of this giant educational machine.

But any candid look at the Soviet today demands attention to this phenomenon which is in many respects the most important activity in the U.S.S.R. today.

The getting of higher education is the best hope a Soviet citizen has of achieving an agreeable way of life and winning honour in the eyes of his fellow men.

There is a driving dedication to the idea of education as the most desirable of attainments that has seldom been equalled in any society unless perhaps in Scotland in the mid-19th century.

I think we have to recognize that the Canadian scene has changed a great deal since the act of confederation assigned responsibilities to the federal and provincial governments. At the time of confederation no one anticipated that the airplane, radio and television would change the complexion of our country as they have done, and certain responsibilities were given to the provinces without thinking very far into the future. But I think when we realize now-and these figures have been compiled by the Canadian Bank of Commerce-that out of every tax dollar we pay 12 cents to the municipality, 14 cents to the province and 74 cents to Ottawa it is fairly obvious that the provinces and municipalities are not able to cope with present-day demands in the field of university training.

I think it is also obvious that the Canadian people, when they turn in their tax dollars, seem to agree that the Minister of Finance should be placed in a position where he can have a very large surplus, though municipal and provincial governments have been turned out by electors who felt that the 12 or 14 cents out of each dollar that was made available were not being wisely spent. It seems to me that there is not a great deal of interest in how we spend the 74 cents.

However, I believe the fact that the federal government is spending so much money and providing such attractive returns to people in government service, or to people who are engaged in cost-price contracts for government projects, is having this effect; that our universities are finding it very difficult to retain personnel. It is also very difficult to encourage our students in high schools to proceed to university.

During the recess I visited one of the establishments on the mid-Canada line at Cranberry Portage, and while I was there I met the trustees of the school. This is typical of the problem which is being encountered. The principal was being paid $3,200 a year. If he would give up his job, change his profession and take a job on the construction project, accepting the lowest rate paid, he would get his board and room-and better board and better accommodation than was ever available to him in Cranberry Portage -free, and he would have at least $500 more than he would be getting as a school principal. The work he would have to do would 82715-274

Canada Council

not be more difficult than teaching. It would consist of washing dishes, peeling potatoes and other such tasks, all very necessary for the running of any establishment, but it does not require a university training for a man to be able to learn this type of job quickly.

I know a boy from my constituency who instead of going to university served an apprenticeship as a machinist. After five years he emerged as a very well qualified machinist. I am sure he is a very good worker, but his friends who went to university are aware of the fact that by the time they have finished their studies they have spent, a great deal more but he will be earning very considerably more than they; in fact he was able to pay income taxes last year on an income of over $8,000 and in the last calendar year his best return for one month was over $800.

Members may ask what this young man does in order to get that sort of salary. He is working up in the Uranium City area doing a very important service which the Canadian taxpayers are going to settle for in the long run. But if one young Canadian is able to look forward to receiving $8,000 a year without going to a university, it discourages his friends from going into debt for a few years to attend university.

Many people in this country are seriously concerned about this problem. On this point I would refer if I may to an article entitled "Science and Mathematics Teaching in our Secondary Schools" by Mr. Garnet T. Page, general manager and secretary of the chemical institute of Canada. Mr. Page points out in this article that this is a national problem. I am not going to take the time of the house by reading the article, but the author has some suggestions to make as to how the situation may be remedied; what professional technical societies can do, what industry can do, what governments can do. He closes by saying that this involves a question of survival. I think it is plain that if we are going to spend $200 million on the building of a mid-Canada line as part of our defence against communism, we must also take all possible steps to increase the numbers of young students who go on to a university level of education.

Dr. Page has also written an article on education and professional manpower in the Soviet union. It is obvious in the light of the very large number of technically trained people turned out every year in the Soviet union that it is not going to be very long before these people go into the underdeveloped areas of the world to help the people in these areas fight the battle against poverty, disease and ignorance; and I think

Canada Council

we should be prepared to make a more generous allowance for the very important objectives outlined in this resolution than has so far been proposed by the Prime Minister.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. St. Laurent (Quebec East):

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Greenwood asked two questions in the course of his remarks, the second of which was, what will be the position of the provinces in connection with the construction projects for which funds may be available through the council.

It is not intended that the Canada Council should initiate any building program. It is going to have a fund available, and universities will come to the council and say, "We have a certain project which we want to realize, a project that will further the general objectives of the Canada Council, and we would like to have a grant from this fund". The council will have the responsibility of examining the project which is brought forth, and if they come to the conclusion that it is really a capital expansion project that will further the general objectives of the council they will have the responsibility of deciding whether that is one of the things to which they should contribute 50 per cent of the cost.

But the university authorities will not go to the council unless they are prepared to finance the other 50 per cent of the cost in some other way, either through a grant by the province or through donations or subscriptions from private individuals or out of reserves, if it is possible for universities to accumulate reserves. There is no intention of substituting the council for the governing bodies of the universities in the responsibility for deciding what expansion they should try to make in their capital facilities for the promotion of the studies of the humanities, social sciences or appropriate studies for the progress of artistic development.

I am not sure that I understood exactly what the second question was; I believe it asked for statistical information with regard to the student population in secondary schools and the number who might be expected to go to universities.

I have not that statistical information, because we took it for granted that with the growing population of Canada the estimates that had been made by the university people themselves as to what their problem was going to be were sufficient to make it advisable at least, if not necessary, for the government and parliament to take some serious notice of their warning that a serious situation was developing and required prompt attention.

I will endeavour to get the statistical information from the dominion bureau of

statistics though, of course, it is not something with respect to which we feel at great ease in inquiring about too directly. Secondary education is part of the educational system under the exclusive jurisdiction of the provincial authorities, and there are some places where it is resented that any close attention should be paid by the federal authorities to the way in which the provincial authorities are discharging their responsibilities in that field.

There will be opportunities, of course, for many more contributions to the discussion of this important problem when the bill is before the house for second reading and for study in committee, and perhaps now that we have had these general views expressed-

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

Not a chance.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. St. Laurent (Quebec East):

If the hon. gentleman feels that he would prefer to make a speech on the resolution before seeing the bill we will be quite prepared to listen to it, but I had thought that possibly members would like to have the bill at the earliest possible moment so their discussion would be adapted to the exact proposals the bill will contain, and so they might not feel that they would have to repeat themselves at the later stage when they will have the bill in their possession.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

The Prime Minister's speech on the resolution was so informative as to the position of the right hon. gentleman that other speeches are called for before we get the bill.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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PC

Daniel Roland Michener

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Michener:

Mr. Chairman, I do not propose to discuss the principles involved, but I believe there is one matter which should be raised at this stage rather than later. First of all may I say that I enjoyed greatly the Prime Minister's discussion of the problem of the encouragement of the arts and sciences in Canada. It was the sort of speech one would expect from a man of his classical training, a type of training which is still prevalent in the province of Quebec and which seems to be lapsing in some other parts of the world.

Like him, I am one who is concerned about the place of the humanities, as they are called for lack of a better word. There is ample support for the application of knowledge to material things and well-being through technological education and that kind of thing, but we must not overlook the need for the growth of the capacity to understand ourselves and society at the same time we achieve greater control and power over material things.

What I want to bring to the Prime Minister's attention is briefly this. The resolution contains three items, and I assume they will all be incorporated and discussed as one bill. That seems to me to raise a problem which is quite difficult. There are three distinct ideas. The first is that of the council for the encouragement of the arts, humanities and social sciences. I think a council of that kind will commend itself generally. How it might be established and with how much money it might be endowed might be subjects giving rise to very different opinions.

It seems to me that if the bill set up the council and gave it the capacity to act, to receive money from the public funds and to receive private funds, as the Prime Minister has suggested it might have, then you would have done one thing which carries out one idea. But the second paragraph of the resolution then goes on to provide $50 million for purposes not limited to the immediate requirements of a council of that kind but for the encouragement of the arts and sciences, for scholarships and for other purposes. The amount and its purposes seem to me to be a second distinct idea which might very well be dealt with as a question of supply and granting of funds to the council which has been established by law.

Then there is a third string to this well-equipped bow, namely that the council shall establish a fund to be called the university capital grants fund. There another $50 million is appropriated for a quite distinct purpose, and one which might give rise to considerations very different from those raised by the first two parts of the resolution.

I am not expressing opinions at this stage, but it is quite conceivable that one would wish to support some aspect of these three matters and not others, and if the whole bill comes forward as a government measure it seems to me it will be rather difficult for hon. members who hold differing opinions on different aspects of this matter to express them in any intelligent way.

Therefore I ask the Prime Minister to consider when the bill is introduced-I assume it has been prepared already-whether the first item might not constitute the bill, and the question of voting funds be separated from the bill so the judgment of the house can be expressed correctly on these items.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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January 18, 1957