January 18, 1957

LIB

Roch Pinard (Secretary of State of Canada)

Liberal

Hon. Roch Pinard (Secretary of Stale):

Mr. Speaker, I will treat the question as a notice. I will check whether the delay of which my hon. friend complains has in fact occurred, and shall inform the house of my findings.

(Text):

Topic:   INQUIRY AS TO DELAY IN TRANSLATING COMMITTEE REPORTS
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PASSAMAQUODDY PROJECT

REQUEST FOR STATEMENT BY GOVERNMENT


On the orders of the day:


PC

Thomas Miller Bell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Thomas M. Bell (Saint John-Alberi):

Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question to the parliamentary assistant to the Secretary of State for External Affairs. In view of the recent announcement which has been made of President Eisenhower's recommendation to congress of a large appropriation of over $1 million with respect to the Passamaquoddy project, will the government make a statement on Canada's up-to-date position with respect to this development in New Brunswick?

Topic:   PASSAMAQUODDY PROJECT
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR STATEMENT BY GOVERNMENT
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LIB

Louis-Joseph-Lucien Cardin (Parliamentary Assistant to the Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. Lucien Cardin (Parliamentary Assistant to the Secretary of State for External Affairs):

I am sure the hon. member desires to have as complete an answer to the question as possible. I shall be happy to take it as notice.

Topic:   PASSAMAQUODDY PROJECT
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR STATEMENT BY GOVERNMENT
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CANADA COUNCIL

PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES

LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister) moved

that the house go into committee to consider the following resolution:

That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the establishment of a Canada Council for the encouragement of the arts, humanities and social sciences and further to provide inter alia that

(a) the Minister of Finance may, out of the consolidated revenue fund, pay to the council the sum of fifty million dollars to constitute an endowment fund for the purposes of the act, and

(b) the council shall establish a fund to be called the university capital grants fund, to which

Canada Council

shall be credited the sum of fifty million dollars, to be paid to the council by the Minister of Finance out of the consolidated revenue fund.

Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) in the chair.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. St. Laurent (Quebec East):

Canada Council

These I consider to be the most immediate needs which Canada has for the encouragement of her arts, humanities and social sciences. We have, therefore, to consider how these requirements can be best fulfilled. I believe that hon. members will agree that a federal department of the fine arts, or some such governmental authority, is not the best answer to the problem. Nothing, I think, could be more detrimental to our real purpose if we were to limit or hamper the work of organizations already in existence by superimposing some central authority which could not have the experience and the knowledge in a particular field which existing societies already possess.

I do not believe that the liberal arts can or should be controlled or directed by the state if they are to remain healthy and continue to flourish. The scholar and the artist, like the scientist, require the wide horizon of freedom as the only border within which they can do their best work. The organizations and the individuals do need some assistance and encouragement in the tasks already in hand. It is this encouragement to perform the tasks already in hand which it should be our purpose to provide, but without any undue interference.

There is another urgent need which will partially be met by the adoption of this resolution and by the creation of the Canada council. That has to do with the capital requirements of our universities. The Gordon report states that universities will require substantial capital grants, if they are to take care of the very large increase in the anticipated enrolment. It is estimated that capital expenditure of about $1 billion will be required for these purposes over the period of the next 25 years. This means that universities will have to spend about $40 million per annum on the average to provide for capital expansion. And at a national conference on "Canada's Crisis in Higher Education" held in Ottawa last November the representatives of the universities of Canada expressed through a resolution adopted unanimously:

Their considered opinion that it was their urgent duty to warn the people of Canada that the problem of universities has become an emergency of national concern to the certain disadvantage of our progress and standing as a nation, and can only be solved by the energetic and immediate assistance and co-operation of all governments in Canada, of business and industry and of private benefactors.

It seems to me that the Canadian government and the Canadian parliament should not ignore such a serious warning and should be prepared to make a contribution, which can be made through the Canada council to meet this emergency.

Our main object in recommending the establishment of the Canada council is to provide some assistance to universities, to the arts, humanities and social sciences as well as to students in those fields without attempting in any way to control their activities or to tamper with their freedom. Governments should, I feel, support the cultural development of the nation but not attempt to control it. This sector of our national life perhaps more than any other must rely on the efficiency of private initiative.

It is our intention that this council should be composed of distinguished men and women who will represent the cultures and regions of Canada-men and women whose interest in and devotion to the universities, the arts and social sciences will induce them to serve on a voluntary basis. Thus we hope that their views and the measures which they will recommend will be as freely given as will be their services. Our wish is that the Canada council should be a body as free from state control as it is prudent for anybody entrusted with public funds to be. It is not to the government that this council is to look for control and direction, though of course it will be free to consult when occasion may arise, with appropriate government departments with which it may, in certain fields, wish to establish a measure of co-operation.

But it is under what I think will be the discerning eye of those people throughout this country who interest themselves in these matters that the council will in effect conduct its work. Hence it will report annually to the representatives of those people in this house where there will be, I am sure, a continuing and freely expressed interest in its stewardship.

I trust that our intention that the council shall be largely independent and shall have a wide measure of autonomy will be made clear by the methods which are proposed for financing its work. It is, in effect, to be endowed with freedom to carry on its work in the light of its own wisdom and with the advice of existing organizations whose cooperation it may wish to enlist as, in its turn, it may help them.

It is with this in mind that we ask for an endowment fund of $50 million to be provided from the consolidated revenue fund. From this sum the council will be permitted to use income after investment, but not the capital. The income only will be available for disbursement. The income will nevertheless be quite substantial and will be continually devoted to the continuance of scholarships, grants, loans and awards in the fields of the arts, humanities and social

sciences. The bill will provide that the council shall be assisted by an investment committee; it will not be confined in its investments to the trustee restrictions which exist in Canadian legislation. It will be the council's duty, with the assistance of this investment committee, to make the wisest possible investment of this endowment in order to secure from it as much income as they and the investment committee think can be secured with safety from the capital.

I anticipate that a large part of these income funds will be administered through existing organizations which have objects similar to those of the council itself. However this may be, the council itself will be solely responsible to parliament for utilizing the funds at its disposal in such a way that the maximum benefit to the country as a whole will result.

We shall also be asking parliament to provide from the consolidated revenue fund a further sum of $50 million to be known as "The University Capital Grants Fund" to be distributed by the council as a contribution toward the financing of specific building projects of which it may approve in the furthering of its general objectives to the extent of not more than 50 per cent in any one case, the contributions to be expended over a period of years-not necessarily in equal instalments of an equal fraction each year but by apportionment generally, to the institutions of the various provinces in proportion to their population. That would not mean that the institutions of one province could not get in one, two or three years, the portion of the fund that would be allocated to them because of the population of their province while others might not for one, two, three or four years be prepared to match or to ask that their institutions' funds be matched from this fund.

Although these two financial provisions will help to meet our most immediate needs, they will not meet, and are not intended to meet, all our requirements. The federal government does not feel that it should be the sole patron of the arts, the humanities and the social sciences or the only source of capital for the universities. Provincial governments have clear and important responsibilities in those fields and I am sure they will want to assume an increasing share of the financial assistance which is required. I also feel that private industry and private persons of means will feel that they have definite financial responsibilities in this respect in compensation for the advantages which will have accrued to them from the Canadian economy. There is evidence that they are already more aware

Canada Council

than ever before of this moral obligation to their fellow citizens and that they also realize more concretely that in the long run, at least, their own prosperity, or the prosperity of the organizations they have set up, will depend to a large extent on the expansion of our universities and on our cultural progress.

However, it has not been easy up to now for them to know how, to whom and for what specific purpose assistance could best be provided. There was no proper channel to ensure that donations would be utilized most effectively and it would have been both costly and very wasteful for each industry or private benefactor willing to provide assistance to set up in each case a special foundation for that purpose.

In establishing the council as an autonomous body, our intention is also to fill that gap and to provide an adequate channel which will have, I hope, the complete confidence of private industry and private benefactors and which they will feel they can use to administer and distribute the assistance they want to make available. We are proposing, therefore, that the council be authorized to accept gifts and bequests from private sources and to dispose of them according to the terms, if any, determined by the donors.

With this provision we are convinced that the contribution made by the government through the Canada council to foster our cultural development will not prevent private contributions but, on the contrary, will provide a new opportunity for private benefactors to make donations and to feel that their money will be well spent for worthwhile purposes. It will be our endeavour to compose the council of such persons as will give that confidence to the Canadian public generally, and I can assure the house that there will be no considerations of partisan politics that will influence us in the choice of those who will make up the council. I trust that private individuals will find it in their hearts to assist in the requirements to be met by the council because, although it may seem that these are large appropriations to be made out of the consolidated revenue fund, I feel and I am sure many in the house will feel that much more than the revenue from $50 million could, with advantage, be used for the purposes for which the council will be set up. I also feel that the availability of $50 million to match other contributions to the capital expansion of Canadian universities will leave it necessary that very much more be obtained from other sources, either provincial and municipal governmental bodies or individuals or private organizations.

It has been reported that the nazi leader, Hermann Goering, said many years ago that.

Canada Council

whenever he heard the word "culture" he reached for his pistol. This statement may-have been fairly representative of a condition of human society against which we fought and won a long and costly war. Now that war is over. But I think we must recognize that our western civilizations, upon which we base all our hopes for the future, are founded to a large extent upon the arts, humanities and social sciences as well as upon material progress and development and that these civilizations may be in some jeopardy from an ideology that threatens to destroy them.

I have used the word "culture", perhaps not for the first time in what I have had to say. It is a word which has been subject to a great deal of misunderstanding and, indeed, to misinterpretation. Since it is a word that has become linked to the name of the Canada council, perhaps I might be permitted to say what I believe it means when used in that sense. I believe that in that sense culture is simply an ability to enjoy those things which succeeding generations of thoughtful men have agreed provide the most profound and lasting pleasures of the mind.

In the past men and institutions of great wealth and power have provided means by which these pleasures could be created so that they might enjoy them. They were men who recognized things of great and abiding value. They -were men who, incidentally, also knew the value of gold coins.

In the past these pleasures were often reserved to the fortunate few who could afford them. In a modern society men of such wealth and power have almost disappeared, and it must be recognized that it is more difficult to amass great fortunes than it was when there was no conception of income taxes, excess profits taxes and things of that kind. But at the same time we recognize that the wealth of the mind expressed in the arts, humanities and social sciences is not a private prerogative but may rightfully belong to all people who wish to seek for it. Therefore it seems to me that governments have a duty to assume some responsibility of providing not control and direction of the arts but leadership in making available the assistance which is so greatly needed. I trust that parliament is prepared to have that duty assumed by the national government and will feel, as we do, that it can best be discharged through an organism such as that which will be provided in the bill which, if this house sees fit, will follow the adoption of the resolution.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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SC

Solon Earl Low

Social Credit

Mr. Low:

Before the Leader of the Opposition speaks, I wonder whether I could ask the Prime Minister one question. I was very

much interested in his statement but he did not make clear to us exactly what he meant when he used the term "humanities". I think it would be useful to us in the debate if we knew exactly what he has reference to when he uses the term "humanities".

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. SI. Laurent (Quebec East):

What I refer to is the study and, I hope as a result of the study, the acquired knowledge of the treasures that have been provided by the experience, studies and philosophies of past generations. When I say "past generations" I mean the generations that have succeeded each other for many thousands of years in the world. I mean that general knowledge of proper human behaviour that results from the accumulated experience of mankind since history has commenced to be written and not those special things that prepare for the exercise of a special avocation or profession. I mean the general broadening and training of the human mind so that the human individual whose mind it is may have as great benefit as one can derive from the accumulation of lore and knowledge over the centuries.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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PC

John George Diefenbaker (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

Canada Council

financing, and the fact that today the provinces and the municipalities are denied their fair share of the national taxation dollar.

What is envisaged here will simply postpone the day. The whole question of dominion-provincial relations will have to be faced; for the provinces and the municipalities more and more find themselves hampered and hamstrung by the failure of this government to face this major problem.

However estimable the purpose is, and however proper is the need in view, we simply postpone again facing the problem that must be faced in this country, a problem that cannot be faced by bits and pieces, but which must be faced at an early date.

I mentioned the need of Canadian universities. The need is becoming greater as the days go by. A survey was recently made to ascertain the degree to which universities in other parts of the world are dependent on grants from the state. In Great Britain 73.6 per cent of college income is from government grants. In the United States it is 58.6 per cent, and in Canada it is 42 per cent. More and more young and worthy students are being denied admission to university because they are unable to meet the ever-rising costs of tuition. In Canadian universities, of the total income today, or until the recent increase announced by the Prime Minister in November, 30 per cent comes from student fees. In the United Kingdom it is 10.7 per cent and in the United States it is 21.4 per cent. Unless action is taken to meet that situation it cannot but result in many outstanding and potential leaders in the sciences, in the arts, and in all the different phases of living, being denied an education; for more and more tuition rates are being raised and worthy students are finding greater and greater difficulty in proceeding to senior education.

That brings out one other phase, namely, the question of providing scholarships. In British universities and colleges 72 per cent of the students registered receive financial assistance from scholarships or bursaries. The income from the $50 million endowment, if invested at 3| per cent, will amount to only $1,750,000, a small amount when compared with the need of providing financial assistance through scholarships and bursaries. In Canada today only 14 per cent of the students receive that assistance.

Then, too, as far as the universities are concerned there is the tremendous magnetic influence of scientific organizations and of business on the staffs of universities. University professors in general are notoriously underpaid in comparison with other professions. There is a shortage of university

teachers. According to the estimate made at the recent national conference on manpower held at St. Andrews, New Brunswick, there is a shortage of some 3,700 teachers at the present time. There is a need for the expansion of facilities, buildings and the like, in universities. Will this need be met by the amount set up here as an endowment fund? I ask that and point out, as the Prime Minister did, that the Gordon commission estimated that in the next 25 years Canadian universities would have to spend over $1 billion in the provision of new facilities and the like. All these facts compel us to ask ourselves whether some action should be taken.

Should there be a Canada council? Well, I think, generally speaking-and I know of no serious opposition to it-people as a whole are very much in favour of a Canada council. Indeed, the question has been asked on numerous occasions since 1951, why has the government delayed so long in the setting up of this council? Some of us have come to the conclusion that this council was in much the same position as the Canada medal. When questions were asked as to when it would be set up, invariably the answer was that there were difficulties in the way. One naturally asks this question, when were those difficulties resolved? What has taken place recently that has changed the government's diffidence and delay since 1951?

The recommendation made was this, and I shall quote only a part of it:

That a body be created to be known as the Canada Council for the encouragement of the arts, letters, humanities and social sciences to stimulate and to help voluntary organizations within these fields, to foster Canada's cultural relations abroad, to perform the functions of a national commission for UNESCO, and to devise and administer a system of scholarships as recommended in chapter XXII.

However, there is also a further portion of this section on page 377 of the report which deserves to be brought to the attention of the Prime Minister and the government and it is this:

We should also consider it a misfortune if this Canada Council became in any sense a department of government, but we realize that since this body will be spending public money it must be in an effective manner responsible to the government and hence to parliament.

I ask these questions at this time because the bill is not before us. This gives us an opportunity to ask questions and to ascertain the general plan the government has in mind. I also point out that there is no suggestion anywhere in this report that the method should be the setting up of an endowment fund consisting of a bulk sum. The sum of $50 million will be taken and placed in a fund this year. Was that method chosen because of the fact that the government this

year has a surplus which is embarrassing and has provided this means of taking away a portion of it? Why was not the recommendation of the Massey commission followed? This commission brought forth a report that met with universal acceptance. At page 382 the following recommendation is made with regard to financing:

The development of the council's work would naturally depend upon the extent to which it would be able to satisfy with wisdom and moderation a real public need, and, if successful in this, we do not doubt that there would be public support of parliamentary action in making adequate funds available to it. We do not find it possible to propose specific sums; we should, however, imagine that the council would find it possible to perform its varied duties effectively with an annual budget which would constitute a very slight charge upon all members of the Canadian population. We venture to believe that our fellow-citizens would find this investment modest in relation to the returns which, we are confident, they could reasonably expect.

Why were these changes made? Having regard to the fact that this endowment will provide only approximately $1,375,000 for the purpose of expanding the facilities of universities and for the provision of scholarships and the like, and especially in view of the estimate of the Gordon commission that in turn reinforced the earlier representations made by the university committee as to the tremendous future demands if our higher educational system is to be preserved to a degree commensurate with Canada's national and international responsibility, why was the recommendation made by the Massey commission departed from?

In committee it is not the object, as I see it, to have hon. members make lengthy speeches. We are here for the purpose of securing information. Then, having before us the bill in question, we are able to deal with it in particular, section by section, and examine into its purposes on the basis of the information we have obtained. As far as the setting up of the council and its objectives are concerned, this represents something that has been generally asked for and I think the Prime Minister owes it to the committee and to the country to outline the reasons which brought about these changes which while not representing a change in direction are of more significance than meets the eye.

The Prime Minister also dealt with the personnel of this body and said it would be free of any partisan consideration. What the Prime Minister envisages is both laudable and necessary, but I would ask him whether or not there is any foundation for what is generally believed to be the course which the government has in mind, that the chairman of this committee will be one who was connected with this government over the years.

Canada Council

However estimable that gentleman is, and may I say I have a high regard for him, his appointment would not result in a complete divorcement from any suggestion of the possibility of government influence. I say that the chairman of this body should be one who in no way possible will be subject to any suggestion that in the slightest degree the council might be subject to outside influences. Following any other course would, in my opinion, strike a blow at the validity and prestige of this council even before it became operative.

The Prime Minister also spoke in strong support of the need of private individuals and organizations to make their contributions to the endowment fund to be administered by this council. He referred to various foundations in the United States such as the Carnegie trust, the Rockefeller foundation, the Ford foundation and the Mellon foundation. These foundations were set up in those halcyon days, which the Prime Minister himself has not forgotten, because he spoke of that time when income tax and corporation taxes and the like were non-existent. There are many today who have amassed wealth who might be inclined to do their part in contributing to this endowment if encouragement was given to them. I think it is a most desirable end that funds be made available but I am thinking now of this one particular phase of the use of those funds to provide scholarships. I would ask the Prime Minister if in order to encourage and ensure an increasing flow of private bequests consideration has been given to the deductibility to a large extent of amounts so contributed in determining the net valuation of estates for succession duty purposes. If we want to encourage contributions of such funds to ensure that sufficient money will be available, then I ask the Prime Minister to consider if the government does not have a responsibility to make possible by way of encouraging legislation the deduction of bequests to this endowment fund. These are but one or two of the questions which I have to ask. Later on when these questions have been answered we will be in a position to discuss various other phases of this resolution.

Again I say that the objective in the setting up of the council must receive the support of all. However, we want to know why there was such a manifest departure from the general plan which is set out in detail by the Massey commission after sitting for a very considerable length of time and being representative of outstanding Canadians. We want to know why the recommendations have been disallowed and why it has seemed expedient not to include them in the general purview of the resolution.

Canada Council

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. SI. Laurent (Quebec East):

May I say

a word or two about the questions which the hon. gentleman has raised. The last question I understand had to do with the character of the council in respect of the deductibility for income tax purposes and for succession duty purposes. I think that that is amply provided for in the terms of the bill in the form in which it will be introduced after the resolution has been discussed.

As to the suggestion that there is a fundamental change in the recommendations of the Massey commission, I do not consider that there is any change at all. I think perhaps we are going somewhat further than they ventured to recommend. We felt that it would be very desirable that the council be able to plan for a number of years. In establishing scholarships for instance you cannot rely merely on the income of one year. In establishing a scholarship you create a situation which has continuing responsibilities. We felt that it would be very desirable to have the council in a position where it would have a certain income upon which it could count year after year. The accounts are to be subject to audit by the Auditor General, and there is required to be submitted to parliament each year a full report of the activities of the council.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

May I ask the Prime Minister if the bill spells out precisely the formula which is to guide the Canada council in the distribution of the proceeds of the second $50 million endowment fund among the universities for construction purposes?

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. St. Laurent (Quebec East):

The terms are not determined in full detail, but it is provided that the contribution on the part of the council will not be more than 50 per cent of the cost of the building or the equipment being provided, and it will be for the kind of buildings required to carry out the objectives for which the council is established. If buildings are required for other purposes in the university they should be provided for otherwise than through the Canada council, the objective of which is to foster these developments of studies in the humanities, social sciences and arts. For instance, if an engineering faculty were required in a university it would be expected that those who are dependent upon the sufficiency and numbers and proper training of engineers would themselves do, as I understand they have done quite recently for a faculty of engineering of the University of Ottawa, pledge themselves to substantial contributions to that end.

The council would not under the terms of the bill make contributions out of this fund

[Mr. Diefenbaker.l

to other capital expansion than that required to further the general objects for which the council is established. It would be provided that the total would be allocated in proportion to the respective population of the provinces and would be available for disbursement during a period of years. That would not mean that each year each province would have to receive its part of its total proportion because, as I said, it may very well be that in one province the institutions of that province would in two or three years receive the whole of what they might be entitled to receive for the full period, while in others it might be two or three or five years before they would take any portion of the fund which would be attributable to them in relation to their population.

At one o'clock the committee took recess.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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AFTER RECESS The committee resumed at 2.30 p.m.


CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. M. J. Coldwell (Rosetown-Biggar):

Canada Council

acquiring for the people of Canada some of the beautiful pictures that were painted by the masters of the past. I think that those appropriations are well worth while. After all, we can spend hundreds of millions of dollars in the building of armaments which are obsolete in some instances even before they come off the assembly line, but when we acquire a beautiful picture, when we build up a beautiful ballet company, when we build up drama, when we encourage literature, we are doing something that is not of passing interest but will remain in the hearts and minds of our people not only in this generation but for generations to come.

Through the Stratford theatre, through the musical organizations in Montreal, Winnipeg and Vancouver, through the various dramatic productions of the C.B.C. and many drama leagues, we have unearthed in this country over the past few years talent that we did not know existed until very recently. That, I say, is a major gain for Canada, a gain not to be expressed in dollars and cents but a gain in our cultural level that will pay rich dividends in the days to come. I wanted to say these things at the outset of my remarks this afternoon.

We are very pleased indeed that the government has set up this council and that it is appropriating substantial sums for the development of our universities. I agree that today the building of our universities is essential to the future well-being of Canada. We are a country with tremendous resources that will eventually be developed, and with the coming of new skills, with the coming of automation, it is more than ever necessary that we shall have a group of young men and young women well educated and well trained in order that they may give of their best to the development of these great resources under the new plans and with the new machines and so on that are going to be at the disposal of the nation within a very short time indeed.

What we invest today in our schools, in our colleges, in our universities, is an investment in the future. I have been rather disturbed at times-I understand that the reason of course is shortage of funds-to see reports in the newspapers of some of our new schools being deprived of some of the facilities that modern schools require. I am thinking of auditoria where students may assemble, where they may enjoy good music, where they may participate in dramatics and so on. I say I know the reason why these facilities have been curtailed or eliminated in the plans for many of our new schools but I think it is a mistake because these institutions are being built not for today or tomorrow but for a long time to come.

When I was overseas and had the opportunity to visit some of our NATO installations in Europe I was pleased indeed to see the schools that were being built there for the very large number of Canadian children who are temporary exiles from our country. I did not know, of course, that there were such large numbers of them until I saw them. We have something like 13,000 troops overseas matched by something like 13,000 women and children. Those children are entitled to the very best that we can give them so that they can come back and enter into our schools, our colleges and our life later on. I was pleased to see that there were either assembly auditoria in these schools or if they were not in the schools then adjacent to them there would be a gymnasium or a cinema where the children overseas can assemble and participate in the kind of activities that I believe are a part of a modern education for the children of our land.

We need more facilities. We need more university facilities. When I visit some of the universities of the country and see the temporary buildings that are being used today I realize that they must be replaced with buildings which will be functional and which will afford our young men and women the opportunities that they need. Not only do we need the buildings but we need to give opportunities for our young men and women to benefit from these institutions. As has already been said today, with the increased university fees many of our younger men and women who have the ability are being denied the right that they should have to a full education because they or their parents cannot afford to meet the costs of university education.

The Leader of the Opposition gave some figures today as to the number of young people in Britain who are being educated in the colleges and universities largely at public expense through bursaries and scholarships. I believe that the number is something over 70 per cent. I think he said 72 per cent. I thought it was about 75 per cent. But I was told over and over again when I was in the United Kingdom both last year and two years ago that today no boy or girl of ability can be denied the education which his or her ability demands because of economic circumstances, that through the system of bursaries and scholarships young men and young women coming from the most humble of homes economically can proceed to a university education. That is as it should be.

We have been told that in some fields of modern education we are being outstripped by Russia and her satellites. I do not know

what kind of educational institutions they have. I know, of course, that a good deal of the time is spent in' indoctrination of the students in those institutions. But nonetheless we are told, by people who should know, that an extremely high level of scientific education is given to the students in the Soviet union. In the forthcoming days the contest in the world will probably not be decided on the battlefields of the world but will be decided by the extent to which one or the other of us can contribute more and more to the well-being of men and women everywhere in the world.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Macdonnell:

Will the hon. member

permit a question?

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Coldwell:

Yes.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
Permalink

January 18, 1957