June 28, 1956

?

Murdo William Martin

Mr. Marlin:

I do not have that particular institution in mind, but I take it from what you said that it would be covered. We are covered by the licensing system of the province. The province defines what is a hospital and what is a nursing home, and if it is a nursing home which is in fact a hospital it will be exempt from the sales tax, for instance. That comes to us on the basis of a certificate from the province. We depend on the regulations of the province, but in the case you mention I would not think there would be much difference.

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CCF

Robert Ross (Roy) Knight

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knight:

In the case I mentioned these people are in this institution because of the fact they need medical care as opposed to simply being chronic old age cases. I do not know what the technical terms are, but I think those are the correct terms.

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CCF

Owen Lewis Jones

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Jones:

I wonder would the minister define "charitable organization"? I have in

mind the fact that at Kelowna the Rotary club is going to build several homes for the aged as they are referred to in this act, and they are going to put up $15,000 or $20,000 and borrow the rest from Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation. The homes are more or less held in trust by a body set up by Rotary on a charitable basis with the idea of continuity of occupancy-

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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

These are homes for the aged?

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CCF
LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

They are included.

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CCF

Owen Lewis Jones

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Jones:

Would you define them as charitable organizations?

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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

Yes, definitely.

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CCF

Owen Lewis Jones

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Jones:

There is no question about it?

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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

Definitely not.

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CCF

Owen Lewis Jones

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Jones:

How is it, then, that the income tax department says they are not; it says they are a business?

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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

I do not know-

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CCF

Owen Lewis Jones

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Jones:

That is what I want to find out. I think you are right; they are a charitable organization. These people are putting up $20,000 out of the goodness of their hearts on a charitable basis and the income tax department insists they pay tax, but it is a charitable organization.

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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

Under the description you have given, they would probably come under this agreement.

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CCF

Owen Lewis Jones

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Jones:

Well, I am glad to have it on the record, anyway.

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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

It covers any home for the aged in which assistance is provided for aged individuals by the provinces.

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SC

Charles Edward Johnston

Social Credit

Mr. Johnston (Bow River):

Mr. Chairman, there is a question I should like to ask the minister concerning clause 4, subclause 2(a), where it is stated that an agreement may include special cases as unemployment assistance costs. In a case where the patient is in one of these homes to whom is the payment made, to the individual or to the institution? Are there cases where payments are made to the institution and where payments are made to the individual? I can understand that in an asylum or a mental home payments might be made to the institution, but there are other cases such as hospitals where people are paying part of the expense themselves. Surely in that case the payment would be made to the individual rather than to the institution.

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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

Our money is paid on the basis of the number of people who are declared

by the province to be on their public assistance rolls. We are seeking authorization under this bill to pay not more than 50 per cent, and that money would be paid directly to the province.

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SC

Charles Edward Johnston

Social Credit

Mr. Johnston (Bow River):

It would be the responsibility of the province to determine whether it would be paid to the individual or to the institution?

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PC

William Gourlay Blair

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Blair:

I come back again to clause 3 of the bill, and I still think there will be confusion under that section. In the first place the word "inmates" is used. The usual meaning, at least to me, of that word is a person who has been committed to an institution. If it is a mental institution he would be committed on the certificates of doctors. Or an individual might be sent there by a municipality because he was suffering from some form of chronic trouble. Otherwise the word "patient" should be used.

I come back again to nursing homes. You might find people there who are there simply because they are old. You will find other people there who have been transferred from hospitals because there is not room in the hospitals for them. It may be less expensive to go into the so-called nursing home.

Then you have various classifications here. You speak of institutions for incurables. Some people are in nursing homes because they are incurable and cannot be taken care of at home. They might occupy a bed in a hospital, and it is more expensive for them to be there. To my mind there are three or four classes of patients, and I think in carrying out this legislation sooner or later there will be difficulty in interpreting 3 (a).

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June 28, 1956