June 28, 1956

PC

Ellen Louks Fairclough

Progressive Conservative

Mrs. Fairclough:

Let us take as an example old age assistance. Suppose a person is resident in one of these institutions and receives old age assistance, which amount then automatically goes to the institution itself. Would that fact disqualify that person under this act?

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

If the individual is receiving old age assistance he would not be included under the provisions of this act unless the province provided additional assistance to the old age assistance. In Ontario, for instance, under the supplementary old age assistance provisions that were recently announced, that would not preclude them because that is not a supplementary payment in the sense that it is in Alberta, Saskatchewan and British Columbia. There it is really assistance. The municipality contributes $8 and the province $12. Under this act they would not be regarded as excluded for the purpose of what is called supplementary assistance in the province of Ontario but which we would regard as additional assistance. Section 9 of the agreement covers that matter.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
PC

Ellen Louks Fairclough

Progressive Conservative

Mrs. Fairclough:

Without regard to section 9 of the agreement at the moment, may I ask this question. If the province itself is contributing to an institution wherein are resident persons receiving old age pensions or old age assistance, would the amount that is contributed by the province in excess of the amount which that institution would

Unemployment Assistance receive-provided it is operated on a charitable basis-from the old age pensions or old age security which is signed over to them be included in the total which the province includes under section 6 as the amount which was expended in the year for assistance by the province? Could the province include these contributions to the maintenance of that establishment as a part of its welfare assistance?

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

No. This is a program to assist individuals. If the money is paid by the province to the institution as such, then these individuals are provided for in that way. For instance, in my own community we have an organization that is run by one of the churches, and the province does pay some assistance to the individuals in that institution. That assistance to individuals would bring those individuals within the purposes of this act. But if it is a grant to the institution as such, that precludes them.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
PC

Ellen Louks Fairclough

Progressive Conservative

Mrs. Fairclough:

Of course that brings up this point. You may have assistance given to individuals which is in turn signed over to an institution, as is the case in a great many instances. In other words, in order to qualify the province would have to make this contribution to each individual resident of that institution, and they in turn would have to sign those contributions over to the institution in which they resided in order for the province to gain the benefit of assistance from the dominion?

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

The last condition is not necessary. That is a matter for arrangement between the individual and the institution. But if the province paid an assistance grant to the individual, we would share in that.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
PC

Ellen Louks Fairclough

Progressive Conservative

Mrs. Fairclough:

It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that we are splitting hairs here on this particular clause, because under clause 8 of the agreement there is set out in three or four very short paragraphs and in that one very long paragraph a description of the type of contribution by the province which is eligible for inclusion in the over-all total of assistance granted. I am sure we are all familiar with the type of institution which operates on a charitable or semi-charitable basis, which is not sponsored by the province but which gains some assistance by reason of the type of person who is there. Certainly this is true in the case of indigents who are residents in such institutions.

It looks as if it is going to be increasingly important to the province to include in its list of persons who are receiving assistance, both in so far as the number of persons is concerned and also in so far as the total expenditure is concerned, every single person

and every single dollar if the province is going to benefit under the scheme. I just wonder whether or not this section 8(a) (iv) in the agreement is a loophole. I do not say it is deliberately so, but I have had so much experience with regulations which are brought into effect under legislation that I wonder if there is not an escape there from a large expenditure of federal funds which would otherwise benefit the province and the municipality.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

I cannot say any more than I have said. What we are seeking to do is assist the province in respect of assistance which they provide to individuals. In one section of the bill we do include the kind of institutions which would not bring all individuals in that institution within the purpose and coverage of the bill. Then we make, as my hon. friend calls to our attention, in section 9 of the agreement an exception, and that would cover such things as nursing homes, hospitals for indigent transients, homes for the aged, poorhouses, alms houses and hostel dormitory accommodation for the aged provided under the National Housing Act.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
PC

Ellen Louks Fairclough

Progressive Conservative

Mrs. Fairclough:

Excuse me; what clause is the minister quoting from?

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

I was just giving the kind of institution. If my hon. friend will look at clause 4, subclause 4 of the bill, the institutions are cited there. Individuals who receive assistance from the provinces for themselves, and are in these institutions, are covered by this bill. But if the grant paid by the province is to the institution as such, they are not included any more than the people in mental institutions or T.B. sanatoria.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
PC

Ellen Louks Fairclough

Progressive Conservative

Mrs. Fairclough:

That is quite true; but after all the bill in itself is enabling legislation, more or less, and the actual terms are set out in the agreement. Therefore when you consider clause 4 you must, of necessity, turn to section 8 of the agreement which it is proposed to sign with the provinces. It is for that reason I wonder about this, because when it comes to setting out the regulations which are going to govern the administration of this act, and particularly since the agreements are now to be incorporated as a part of this act, then it is very important to tie the two together.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

If my hon. friend will look at the agreement, section 8 (iv), all the exceptions there she will find conform with clause 4, subclause 4 of the bill.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
PC

Ellen Louks Fairclough

Progressive Conservative

Mrs. Fairclough:

Which one?

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

In the agreement, section 8 (a).

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
PC

Ellen Louks Fairclough

Progressive Conservative

Mrs. Fairclough:

You mean section 8 (a) (iv)?

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
?

Murdo William Martin

Mr. Marlin:

Yes.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
PC

Ellen Louks Fairclough

Progressive Conservative

Mrs. Fairclough:

That is the one I was talking about.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
?

Murdo William Martin

Mr. Marlin:

Those are the exceptions.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
PC

Ellen Louks Fairclough

Progressive Conservative

Mrs. Fairclough:

That is precisely the clause I asked the minister to explain.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink
?

Murdo William Martin

Mr. Marlin:

That is what I was covering. Section 8 of the agreement, in part provides:

There shall be excluded from the reimbursement claim any person, together with any payment made to or on behalf of such person, who is

(a) an inmate in any institution maintained in whole or in part out of funds appropriated by

(i) the parliament of Canada,

(ii) the legislature of the province,

(iii) a municipality, or

(iv) a charitable organization;

except that there may be included in the reimbursement claim payments made by the province or by a municipality for the upkeep of inmates in homes for special care . . .

Then homes for special care are defined in clause 4 (4) of the bill, which include nursing homes, hostels for indigent transients, homes for the aged, etc.

Topic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Subtopic:   UNEMPLOYMENT ASSISTANCE
Sub-subtopic:   PROVISION FOR FEDERAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO COSTS IN PROVINCES
Permalink

June 28, 1956