May 30, 1956

PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

On those terms.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. St. Laurent (Quebec East):

I noted, with some surprise, what the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar said in concluding his speech in committee on Monday, as reported at page 4399 of Hansard in the following words:

I very sincerely hope, because it is not in the best interests of Canada, that the opposition will be strong enough to prevent this bill from going through before the deadline.

Now, sir, if all the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar meant was that he hoped the opposition would be able to convince, by its

arguments, those of us on this side of the house the bill should not be passed, I take no exception to that statement.

But if, on the other hand, he meant that he felt the opposition had a right to prevent hon. members on both sides of the house from expressing by their votes their opinions on this bill in time to make the bill effective, then I suggest, sir, he was claiming for a minority in this house the right to override the majority. [DOT]

I am confident that the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar will admit every member on this side of the house has just as much right as any hon. member on the other side of the house to express his opinion on this measure and I feel he should have an opportunity to express it in time to be effective.

I am not unmindful of what was said by the hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway in his moving speech on Monday as reported at page 4377 of Hansard:

May I tell hon. members, government members, official opposition members, C.C.F. members and Social Credit members, that I favour closure. The government has a perfect right-not only a right but a duty-to invoke closure at the right time; that is, when it has been demonstrated that the business of the house cannot be carried on in any other way but b,y closure.

I hope it will be possible for the house to agree on this additional time for discussion of the bill in the committee stage, and I invite the leaders of the parties opposite to authorize those who customarily act for them to seek to arrange, through the usual channels, to make this additional time available.

Meanwhile, I have no choice, if the deadline which the government faces is to be met, but to give notice and I hereby do give notice pursuant to standing order 33 that at the next sitting of this committee of the whole house on Bill No. 298, an act to establish the Northern Ontario Pipe Line Crown Corporation, I will move that the further consideration of clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, the title of the said bill and any amendments proposed thereto, shall be the first business of the said committee and shall not further be postponed.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

The axe again.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

Mr. Chairman, I rise on a point of order.

Mr. Sf. Lauren! (Quebec East): I hope, Mr. Chairman, that an understanding can be reached which will make it unnecessary for me to make this motion.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

George Alexander Drew (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Drew:

Mr. Chairman-[DOT]

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

I rise on a point of order, Mr. Chairman. My point of order, which I am prepared to argue now or to argue at

Northern Ontario Pipe Line Corporation another time if you think it more appropriate, is that the notice which the Prime Minister has sought to give is invalid and cannot be acted upon at the next sitting of the house. I am prepared to give my reasons based on the wording of standing order 33; based also on the explanation of closure given by Arthur Meighen in 1913; based also on three precedents, one of them in 1913 and two in 1917; and based also on my answer to the mistaken use of closure perpetrated by Mr. Bennett in 1932. Whether you wish to have that argument now or when the Prime Minister attempts to make the motion I leave in your hands. However, I felt that unless I registered objection immediately you might tomorrow say that I had no right to object. My point of order is that this motion could not be moved without the remaining clauses, namely 5, 6 and 7, having been called at least once and postponed.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Edward Turney Applewhaite (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Deputy Chairman:

I realize entirely what the hon. member is announcing. I think he will agree with me that there is nothing before the chair except clause 4. I have no motion to put before this committee. The house has been advised that such motion will be moved at the next sitting at which time, of course, the question of whether or not it is in order and whether or not it falls out of any order because the preliminaries which are required to put it in order were out of order, will be the subject of debate. But I cannot rule out of order a notice of a motion which is not before the chair-it is admittedly before the committee of the whole under the standing order-as I think it would be fair to say perhaps that a motion or a question which appeared in the appendix to the Votes and Proceedings of today announcing that it was going to be moved the day after tomorrow would not be a fair subject for a ruling until such time as it reached routine proceedings and was presented to the house.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

Mr. Chairman, that is quite satisfactory to me. I just wanted to be sure that you would recognize me on the point of order if the Prime Minister attempts to move that motion tomorrow.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Coldwell:

Mr. Chairman, may I just rise on a point of privilege? The Prime Minister referred to a remark I made at the conclusion of my speech. May I say to him that I believe that, if one feels as strongly as I do that this is not in the best interests of the country, anything I can do to stop this going through, under proper parliamentary procedure, I am right in undertaking.

4466 HOUSE OF

Northern Ontario Pipe Line Corporation

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

George Alexander Drew (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Drew:

Mr. Chairman, the notice that the Prime Minister has given reduces to a complete farce-

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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?

Some hon. Members:

Oh, oh.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

James Sinclair (Minister of Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. Sinclair:

Obstruction.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

George Alexander Drew (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Drew:

-the earlier suggestion that he was in fact making any proposal that had behind it any earnest desire to have a discussion of this measure. In effect what he says is this: "Look at this nice sharp axe. I shall withhold that axe if you submit to the terms I place before you". The velvet which he places over the edge of the axe renders the edge no less sharp. I would hope that there is no hon. member on this side of the house who would be prepared to follow the course of action suggested,-

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

Or on the other side.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

George Alexander Drew (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Drew:

-and I would hope that there were some on the other side of the house who would not be prepared to follow it;-

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
?

An hon. Member:

You will not find very many.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

George Alexander Drew (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Drew:

I would hope there would be some on the other side of the house who would not be prepared to follow a course of action suggested by the Prime Minister when it is backed by a threat of closure of this kind.

We have had different kinds of closure already. We first of all had closure moved by the Minister of Trade and Commerce when we had before us the motion that it was expedient to introduce this bill. The notice of that closure was given before a single member of the opposition had been given an opportunity to indicate in any way what his position was here in this house. Then we had closure on second reading. Then when we came into the committee stage we had a type of closure never even attempted before in this or any similar parliament, when the Minister of Trade and Commerce rose on the calling of section 1 and moved postponement of the consideration of that section.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
?

An hon. Member:

Further consideration.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

George Alexander Drew (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Drew:

I should say further consideration of that section. That was indeed an affront to this house. There had been no consideration and therefore there could be no further consideration. We were allowed no consideration of any kind on section 1 where the opportunity presents itself to elicit information by direct questions. We were offered no opportunity to consider section 2. We were offered no opportunity to consider section 3. We were then given the opportunity to consider section 4 which, in a large

measure, had become a futility because we had already passed over the definition and operative sections of the act.

Now, the Prime Minister suggests that we agree to sit tonight and Saturday, provided we will agree to their terms.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

James Sinclair (Minister of Fisheries)

Liberal

Mr. Sinclair:

Just sit and talk.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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May 30, 1956