May 25, 1956

LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

The question now is on the motion moved by the Minister of Finance. Mr. Harris, seconded by Mr. Campney, moves:

That the hon. member for Eglinton (Mr. Fleming) be suspended from the service of the house for the remainder of this day's sitting.

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LIB
CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

I rise on a question of privilege.

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?

An hon. Member:

Anything for headlines.

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LIB

William Alfred Robinson (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

Order. I am on my feet and questions of privilege cannot be raised. I now propose-

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PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Macdonnell:

Mr. Chairman, earlier in the afternoon, as I understood it, you said that you would hear me on a question of privilege.

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LIB

William Alfred Robinson (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

Order. While I am on my feet no hon. member may rise. I propose to give my ruling in connection with the point of order raised by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre in connection with the motion of Mr. Howe (Port Arthur) that further consideration of clause 3 of this bill be postponed.

As reported at page 4311 of Hansard of last evening the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre raised his point of order and, from the first paragraph, it is apparent that it is somewhat similar to points of order raised on two previous occasions in connection with similar motions. As reported at page 4312 of Hansard the hon. member raises a point which is somewhat different from the points previously raised. I refer to his reference to page 537 of May's fifteenth edition, which reads as follows:

A proposal to postpone the only effective clause of a bill until the subordinate clauses have been considered, or to postpone part of a clause, is out of order.

I have examined the bill with some care and I find that I can distinguish a point of separation in that clause 3 is not the only effective clause of this bill, in my opinion. I shall not elaborate on this matter, but the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre himself indicated that the English practice in these respects is sometimes different from our own.

The hon. member for Eglinton raised several points, one with regard to "consideration" or "further consideration", with which I think I dealt sufficiently at length on a previous occasion. He also introduced one

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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Martin:

Mr. Speaker, I was paired with subject which I thought was somewhat new the hon. member for Cape Breton South in that he mentioned the point-I forget his (Mr. Gillis). Had I voted, I would have exact words-that if we did not consider or voted for the motion. did not pass clause 3, we could not deal with

the later clauses because clause 3 deals with And Mr. Fleming having withdrawn: the setting up of the corporation.

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PC

John George Diefenbaker

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

Farewell, John Hampden. I do not consider that point to be well And the house having resumed in com- taken, in that the motion proposes only that nittee: further consideration of the clause be post-

On clause 3-Establishment and constitution.

poned. It does not kill the clause.

I have therefore come to the conclusion that even after considering the new material, I am bound by the two precedents which

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LIB

William Alfred Robinson (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

Order.

have been set by decisions of the house. 1 rule accordingly that the point of order is not well taken.

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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

I wish to appeal your ruling to the house and I ask you, sir, to include in your report to Mr. Speaker that my point of order was based on standing order 78 (1) and also on page 537 of May's fifteenth edition, and also on the principle that it is not proper to seek to do indirectly what cannot be done directly. At your option you may also include that the only answer made to my three points by the Minister of Finance was that the government has decided it has to take whatever action is necessary to reach a decision.

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LIB

William Alfred Robinson (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

May I point out to the hon. member that some confusion seems to have arisen with regard to the question of a report. I think I drew the attention of hon. members previously to citation 428 of Beau-chesne's third edition, which says that in case of an appeal to the house it is the duty of the chairman to leave the chair immediately and report in writing the point of order which he has decided. Hansard, of course, will give a complete report of what has taken place. I consider it my duty to reduce the matter to writing, and if I have not done so adequately Hansard will show that. In view of the fact that when the hon. gentleman appeals I must leave the chair immediately, I think that suspends the matter and it is my duty, I imagine during the time I have left the chair, to reduce the matter to writing. I consider that as my duty and I shall perform it now.

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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

Will you hear this point of privilege?

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LIB

William Alfred Robinson (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

Since I have given my ruling on the point of order and it has been appealed, I feel it is my duty to leave the chair and present the matter to the house. I do so now.

Mr. Speaker resumed the chair, and the chairman of the committee made the following report:

In committee of the whole, when it was considering clause 3 of Bill No. 298, an act to establish the Northern Ontario Pipe Line Crown Corporation, Mr. Knowles raised a point of order to the effect that standing order 78 (1) would be violated

if the motion of the Minister of Trade and Commerce to postpone the further consideration of clause 3 of the bill was carried, and it was his submission that there had to be consideration of a clause before it could be postponed; and further, that it was not in order to postpone the only effective clause of a bill until subordinate clauses had been considered, and for further considerations advanced.

After considering the question raised in this point of order, I thought the matter was similar to that raised on previous occasions, and I still felt bound

67509-276^

Northern Ontario Pipe Line Corporation by the precedents established yesterday. I therefore ruled that the point of order was not well taken. From this, Mr. Knowles appealed.

Mr. Speaker put the question as* follows:

Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) of the committee of the whole reports that when in committee Mr. Knowles raised a point of order to the effect that standing order 78 (1) would be violated if the motion of the Minister of Trade and Commerce to postpone the further consideration of clause 3 of the bill were carried, and it was his submission that there had to be consideration of a clause before it could be postponed; and further that it was not in order to postpone the only effective clause of a bill until the subordinate clauses had been considered; and for further considerations advanced.

After considering the question raised in the point of order the chairman thought the matter was similar to that raised on previous occasions, and he still felt bound by the precedents established yesterday and therefore he ruled that the point of order was not well taken. Whereupon Mr. Knowles appealed to the house from the chairman's ruling.

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PC
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Some hon. Members:

Five o'clock. Progress reported.

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LIB

Edward Turney Applewhaite (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Deputy Chairman:

There are referred to this committee a number of divorce bills. Is there unanimous consent that the committee deal with all these divorce bills as one?

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Some hon. Members:

Agreed.

Bill No. 257, for the relief of Islay Isobel Campbell Jones.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 258, for the relief of Audrey Joan Atkinson Hanson Hanson.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 259, for the relief of Marie Eglantine Victoria Laurenza Gagne Holowaty.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 260, for the relief of Barbara Helen Major Kaye.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 261, for the relief of Hazel McJanet Thompson Stewart.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 262, for the relief of Patricia Marion Cook Townsend.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 263, for the relief of Helen Joan Franks Manley Sellen.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 264, for the relief of Lily Kite Herscovitch.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 265, for the relief of Mary Bagdonas Roselle.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 266, for the relief of Arthur Telford Bates.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 267, for the relief of Marjorie Pennell Robinson.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 268, for the relief of Joseph Henri Andre Lessard.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 269, for the relief of Sheila Joan Mencher Morantz.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 270, for the relief of Frances Marie Ware Ami.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 271, for the relief of Shirley Field Schleider.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 272, for the relief of Jeannine Cecile Marie Tessier Davies.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 273, for the relief of Madeline Mclsaac Metayer.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 274, for the relief of Gloria Ann Hazelton Stewart.-Mr. Henderson.

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PRIVATE BILLS

LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

There are several bills that have to be considered in committee of the whole. Is it agreeable that all these bills be referred to the committee of the whole in one motion?

Bill No. 275, for the relief of Clifford Acland Barber.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 276, for the relief of Hilda Louise Prewer Shaver.-Mr. Henderson.

Bill No. 277, for the relief of Gertrude Earle Bell.-Mr. Henderson.

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May 25, 1956