May 24, 1956

LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Those who are opposed to this motion will please say nay.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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?

Some hon. Members:

Nay.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

In my opinion the yeas have it. And more than five members having risen:

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Call in the members.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin (Minister of National Health and Welfare)

Liberal

Mr. Marlin:

I was paired with the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis). Had I voted I would have voted for the motion.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

Robert Henry McGregor

Progressive Conservative

Mr. McGregor:

I was paired with the hon. member for Hamilton East (Mr. Ross). Had I voted I would have voted against the motion.

The house went into committee, Mr. Robinson (Simcoe East) in the chair.

On clause 1-Short title.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Clarence Decatur Howe (Minister of Defence Production; Minister of Trade and Commerce)

Liberal

Mr. Howe (Pori Arlhur):

Mr. Chairman, clause 1 is the short title clause, stating that the act may be cited as the Northern Ontario Pipe Line Crown Corporation Act. It is

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Northern Ontario Pipe Line Corporation purely a formal clause and since we have had some six days of general discussion and a few days more of procedural discussion I move:

That further consideration of this clause be postponed.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

William Alfred Robinson (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

Those in favour of the motion-

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

Mr. Chairman, are you going to rule that the motion is not debatable, that there cannot be a word of discussion on this first clause of the bill where we always have a general discussion, and on which I wish to introduce an amendment?

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

William Alfred Robinson (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

I believe if the hon. gentleman will examine the authorities he will find that a motion of this kind is not debatable and I should so rule.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

George Alexander Drew (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Drew:

Mr. Chairman, that would mean that there is to be no discussion at all.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

William Alfred Robinson (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

Order. Do I understand that the Leader of the Opposition is rising on a point of order?

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

George Alexander Drew (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Drew:

Yes, Mr. Chairman. I would hope that Your Honour will permit me to present to the government a perfectly reasonable request, that they do not carry contempt of parliament this far and that they reconsider this motion.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

William Alfred Robinson (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

Order. I hardly find that a true point of order.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

On a point of order, I ask you, if you have not already ruled on that motion that you now rule that the motion is debatable. If your ruling is that it is not debatable then I must regretfully and respectfully appeal your ruling.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

William Alfred Robinson (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

My suggestion to the hon. member was that he examine the authorities which lead me to believe that it is not debatable, and I proposed so to rule. If the hon. member can assist me with a brief statement to the contrary I would be willing to hear him.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

Mr. Chairman, I believe that this is the first time that there has been such a motion in the sovereign Canadian House of Commons in the last 24 years. I point out to you that on that last occasion in 1932 it was introduced, not at the outset, as it is now, but only after debate had proceeded for some days in the committee of the whole.

I would remind you that it is the custom of this house, particularly in connection with a new bill, one not amending an existing statute of this parliament, to permit general discussion on the first clause of the bill. That is the right of all members of the house.

Northern Ontario Pipe Line Corporation

Here we have the Minister of Trade and Commerce, even before anyone has said a word in this committee of the whole, rising to introduce this motion which apparently is intended to throttle all effort at discussion in this committee and to prevent any discussion of the first clause and deprive members of their undoubted right to have a general discussion on the first clause of the bill. I pointed out to you that far from this being simply a formal matter or a formal discussion, I have an amendment to move to this first clause of the bill which I am most anxious to introduce. May 1 tell you what that amendment is?

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

William Alfred Robinson (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

Order. I hope hon. members will maintain order in the committee. I have indicated to the hon. member that 1 wished to hear him and was permitting him to assist me if he had any authority contrary to the idea which I had gained from the authorities that a motion of this kind was not debatable. I hope hon. members will allow me to hear the hon. member, but on the other hand may I ask the hon. member to confine his remarks to the authorities which I have asked him to give.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

Mr. Chairman, I have not before me the volume of Hansard for 1932 in which the discussion is contained, although I had it here the other day and read some extracts from it. If you will refer to Hansard of April 1, 1932 you will find that when on that occasion the government introduced a similar motion it was discussed. In the course of that discussion the late Right Hon. Mackenzie King made biting criticisms of the government for introducing such a motion. It was in the course of speaking to that motion in the committee of the whole that he referred to it as a procedure such as had never been introduced in a British parliament in reference to a money bill. He went on to say that such a motion would make a farce out of parliament and reduce to a nullity parliamentary institutions and the whole parliamentary process.

I submit that that is a perfectly good precedent. I cannot give you the page reference for Hansard of April 1, 1932 because I am sure no one expected a throttling motion like this to be introduced before a word had been said in this committee of the whole by way of discussion. Otherwise I would have had the volume here. In the face of that precedent I make the submission that this is a debatable motion.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

William Alfred Robinson (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

I think I understand the situation. I also have not been-

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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May 24, 1956