May 23, 1956

PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

He has not moved it yet.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

There are many things that are sometimes possible but do not happen in a house such as ours, and I would refer hon. members to Beauchesne, citation 227, where, talking about debate under closure, it says:

The government members, in order to prevent the opposition from proposing such amendments, may keep up debate until two o'clock in the morning . . .

This does not happen because, as hon. members know, the Chair distributes the time among members, and we are faced with the same problem now. If I allow hon. members who want to move instructions to proceed before the question is proposed by the chair that the house go into committee of the whole on this bill, then I leave them in the position where they can move what they consider is a motion in the nature of a substantive motion, whereas if I put the motion of the Minister of Trade and Commerce they are then placed in the position set out in Bourinot at the top of page 513. I ask them: Am I going to delay the proposal of the motion of the Minister of Trade and Commerce if there are four, five, six or seven motions for instructions? Having said that, I think the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre understands the situation and he can put his motion.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

Before that is done-

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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?

Some hon. Members:

Sit down.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

-I wish to explain the situation. I have not intervened lately for this reason. When the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre rose I was rather under the impression that he was going to speak to the point of order that had been before us. It had been my intention to appeal your ruling on the motion I made. I would request that right now before the hon. member actually makes his motion.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

I submit that it is now too late for that to take place.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

Mr. Speaker, in view of Your Honour's ruling, which you have now made twice, that it is proper at this time to move a motion of instruction, I move, seconded by the hon. member for Vancouver -Kingsway (Mr. Maclnnis):

That it be an instruction to the committee of the whole that they have power to consider amending Bill No. 298, an act to establish the Northern Ontario Pipe Line Crown Corporation, by incorporating therein the agreement made on May 8, 1956, between Her Majesty the Queen in right of Canada and Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Limited.

23. 1956 4261

Northern Ontario Pipe Line Corporation

I am prepared to speak to the motion if Your Honour will allow it as in order.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre has moved that the committee have power to consider amending Bill No. 298 by incorporating therein an agreement made on May 8, 1956 between Her Majesty the Queen in right of Canada and Trans-Canada Pipe Lines Limited. The subject matter of this instruction, moved before the motion for the house to go into committee of the whole is proposed from the chair, is one which, as Bourinot says at page 512, is an instruction of the nature of a substantive motion and has to take precedence over the question that the Speaker do leave the chair. That type of instruction is one that is the subject of a distinct question which I believe requires notice. It falls under the decisions rendered by English Speakers that I referred to a moment ago in the second paragraph on page 515 of Bourinot where it says:

That notice should be given of an instruction when a member has proposed such as a substantive motion, and not as an amendment to the question, that the Speaker do leave the chair.

If the question that the Speaker do leave the chair had been proposed I said earlier that the hon. member could not have moved his motion by way of amendment because the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair to go into committee of the whole is not debatable. He has moved it before, which is the only place at which it can be moved, but at this moment it is in the nature of something which is not in the bill. He wants to add a document to the bill which probably would be the subject matter of a schedule or an appendix, and it is my view that notice is required for an instruction of this type.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Coldwell:

May I just say one word? An agreement is mentioned in the bill. Such mention is part of the bill. An agreement is clearly mentioned in it. If you look at part II you will find this language:

(e) pursuant to any agreement in that behalf made, with the approval of the governor in council, before or after the coming into force of this act,...

Consequently I argued previously-

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Would the hon. gentleman be good enough to give me the number of the clause again?

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Coldwell:

Yes, Mr. Speaker. The clause is No. 7 (2) (e). I argued this matter on a previous occasion on second reading. Now we are at the point where I think it is crucial that the agreement should be a part of the bill itself. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that

Northern Ontario Pipe Line Corporation under your own ruling just now this is certainly the right place to move it and that the motion is in order at this time.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

The hon. member tor Rose-town-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) will, I think, agree with me in this. I may say that I had overlooked the fact that in one of the clauses of the bill mention was made of this agreement. But may I ask what there is to prevent the committee from dealing with this matter when the house is in committee of the whole?

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
?

An hon. Member:

Nothing.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Why should an instruction be given to the committee to incorporate the agreement therein?

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Coldwell:

Mr. Speaker, may I submit that is not the point. The point is this. Is it in order to do this at this time?

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
?

Some hon. Members:

Oh, oh.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

James Joseph McCann (Minister of National Revenue)

Liberal

Mr. McCann:

The agreement is in possession of the house.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Coldwell:

Mr. Speaker, I do not think I have participated before in these discussions of points of order and to hon. gentlemen opposite I would suggest that, since they have closure on their side and are muzzling parliament so effectively, I might be given an opportunity to express my views. I am wondering whether we are in the old German Reichstag or whether we are in the Canadian parliament.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
?

Some hon. Members:

Oh, oh.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Coldwell:

Mr. Speaker, I should like to have your ruling.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink

May 23, 1956