May 23, 1956

PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

Perhaps I could put a question to Your Honour.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration)

Liberal

Mr. Pickersgill:

It is against the rules.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

I think it will save some time. Do I understand Your Honour to be about to rule on the basis that the terms of the instruction are not appropriate because of the citations you have read, or because you feel that the instruction cannot be moved at this stage? I would say that if it were the former, then there would be a difference of opinion between us as to whether in fact the terms of my instruction are proper. But if it is the latter that you are to rule, then there would be a fundamental difference of opinion as to the propriety of an hon. member moving an instruction at this moment. It might be helpful if we could have the discussion narrowed down.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Perhaps I could clarify that point. Generally when the order of the day is read, "House in committee of the whole" the Speaker puts the motion. My first remarks were made on the assumption that I had proposed the motion that I do now leave the chair for the house to go into committee of the whole at that moment. That motion is not debatable and I could not see how anyone could stand up and say anything even to move a superseding motion. This particular phase of our procedure is rather new because it is relatively recently that we have adopted new standing orders. Prior to the session of 1912-13 they were debatable. Citation 165 of Beauchesne's third edition reads:

A motion for the adjournment of debate upon a question for the adjournment of the house will not be entertained because no adjournment motion can be debated or amended.

It will be seen that that citation has no relevancy to the point at issue, but I draw attention to the last clause which reads:

-because no adjournment motion can be debated or amended.

He gives a reason in one instance, which is just as good as in any other, that if a motion is not debatable, it is not debatable and no one can stand up and say anything. We had a point like that the other day on the motion to adjourn the house. I will not make

5, 1956 4259

Northern Ontario Pipe Line Corporation the point now, but I have studied the matter and have come to the conclusion that when a motion is made that is not debatable under our rules the only thing for the house to do is to vote.

The motion for instruction was made by the hon. member before I proposed the motion for the house to go into committee of the whole and therefore what applies is the first paragraph on page 512 of Bourinot. The hon. member has made a good case by virtue of the decisions of the English Speakers rather than what is outlined by Bourinot at page 515. He has indicated that in all the precedents he has quoted the house has done exactly as Bourinot says at page 515 should be done, when the house must divide a bill in two or consolidate two bills or when it wants to add a clause which it would not have the power to do otherwise.

I rule on this basis, that the motion of the hon. member for Kamloops at this point is one that is in order from the point of view of the moment at which it must be proposed. Secondly, I say that the instruction contained in there is one that gives the committee instruction to do something which it already has power to do and that, therefore, the instruction is not necessary.

Of course, if the hon. member were to be faced later in committee of the whole with a ruling by the chairman, that the subject matter of his amendment were not to be relevant to any sections, I would say to him that he has a recourse and that, when the bill comes back from committee, he can always move that the bill be referred back with instructions. As he knows, it is merely postponing the matter. So my decision now is that the committee, in my own view, has power to deal with the subject matter of the instructions contained in this motion, and therefore I will rule it out.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

Mr. Speaker, on the basis of your ruling that a motion of instruction if made at this juncture is made at the proper moment, provided it is a proper instruction, I rise to move:

That it be an instruction to the committee of the whole that they have power to consider amending Bill No. 298 by incorporating therein the agreement made on May 8, 1956, between Her Majesty the Queen-

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

May I interrupt the hon.

member before he concludes reading his motion? Is it the contention of hon. members that the floor should be reserved to them with a view to putting these motions to give instructions to the committee of the whole? Hon. members know that it is customary, when there is an order of the house to go

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Northern Ontario Pipe Line Corporation into committee of the whole, that the order is read, the minister indicates he is ready to have the motion proposed, and the Speaker proposes the motion. The hon. member for Kamloops has made one motion, and I have dealt with it. How long am I going to act as if the Minister of Trade and Commerce should not have his motion put forward from the chair and therefore should not be recognized at all, so as to give how many hon. members the chance to move many intervening motions in the meantime?

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

Mr. Speaker, may I refer you to Bourinot, page 516-

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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?

Some hon. Members:

Oh! Nuisance.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

Bourinot at page 516 deals with that point specifically, where he says:

Mr. Speaker ruled, as above,...

"That any number of instructions may be moved successively to the committee on the same bill, as each question for an instruction is separate and independent of every other..."

That seems to dispose of the point raised.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Walter Edward Harris (Minister of Finance and Receiver General; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Harris:

Even assuming that is so, the remarks you made, sir, are extremely valid. Must the government wait while every member of the opposition moves a motion? We have placed one before you; we want it put.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

John George Diefenbaker

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

The old steam roller.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

George Alexander Drew (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Drew:

The government says; it must be so.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

That is a point which Your Honour, of course, is in a position to answer. A matter is either right or wrong; it is not to be decided on the basis of whether or not-

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Clarence Decatur Howe (Minister of Defence Production; Minister of Trade and Commerce)

Liberal

Mr. Howe (Port Arihur):

Except when you do it; then it is always wrong.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

-it is inconvenient to the government.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

May I point out to the hon. member that that is not the point at all. The point is that a member gets the floor when he catches the Speaker's eye. It is very simple. Standing order 29 only meets the case when two members rise at the same time, and it states that a motion may be made that a certain hon. member be now heard. But the question is that, when the hon. member rose-after I had just made my ruling, and I had not yet reached the comfort of my own chair, the hon. member was standing. I sincerely believed he was at that moment going to comment on the ruling I had just made. As a matter of fact, that is the way he started his comments, anyway. I did not know that he was going to conclude with another motion

and I repeat the point. Whatever is done with respect to this motion one way or the other, I ask the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre: Am I going to give the floor to every hon. member who wishes to move any other motion but the one that the house do go into committee of the whole at the present moment?

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

Mr. Speaker, may I point out that I waited, so far as making my own decision whether or not I would move this, until I heard your ruling on the motion made by the hon. member for Kamloops.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Walter Edward Harris (Minister of Finance and Receiver General; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Harris:

How innocent!

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

You made a very clear-cut ruling and divided it into two parts. If I may deal with the second part first, you said that his motion was out of order because of its substance, but before you ruled it out of order on that ground you said that he was in order at this point in seeking to move a motion of instruction. Therefore, relying on page 516 of Bourinot, I feel that if one motion of instruction is in order at this particular time, inconvenient though it may be to my hon. friends opposite, literally any number of such motions may be made provided they meet the conditions that you yourself have laid down. I say to you, sir, that you will be the judge as to whether or not the substance of the motion that I seek to make is in order, whether it is a proper instruction, but I rely on your own statement when you were answering the hon. member for Kamloops that it is appropriate at this point, before the question for going into committee of the whole is proposed, to move a motion of instruction. It was on the basis that I felt I was at exactly the same point in our proceedings that the member for Kamloops was when he rose some time ago and that I had exactly the same right he had then to propose a motion of instruction, subject only to Your Honour's verdict as to whether the substance of my motion of instruction is a proper instruction to the committee. It was on that basis I sought to move it. I should like to move it. I should like to repeat the whole of it, but of course whether or not I may proceed with it I am sure Your Honour will at least let me propose the motion so that you can decide if it is in order.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
Permalink
LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

At this moment the hon. member is in possession of the floor and I will allow him to move it, but perhaps 1 am a jump ahead. I would imagine that hon. members will be fair in this matter. Here is an order of the day, house in committee of the whole, and I am about to propose that

I do now leave the chair, a motion moved by the minister who pilots this bill.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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May 23, 1956