May 23, 1956

CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

After a page of debate.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

George James McIlraith

Liberal

Mr. Mcllrailh:

Yes, but he immediately desisted from debate when the matter was drawn to his attention.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Walter Adam Tucker

Liberal

Mr. Tucker:

May I draw one point to your attention, Mr. Speaker. At page 658 of Beau-chesne, third edition, I find the following:

The house cannot instruct a committee of the whole to amend a bill respecting public expenditure, so as to alter the nature of the expenditure recommended by the crown.

If you were to entertain the motion, Mr. Speaker, that the committee should divide the bill you would alter the whole foundation on which the bill is based. These two proposals are tied together and you would be changing the whole basis upon which this legislation has been recommended by the crown. Clearly a motion like that made by a private member of the house, not a minister of the crown, would be out of order because surely it would change the whole basis on which this recommendation by the crown is based. I cite that to Your Honour.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

May I point out to you, Mr. Speaker, that you have already ruled that the motion is in order. You did that some time ago. The point you are considering now is whether or not the motion is debatable.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Yes. I do not like these

situations of indecision. Reference has been made by the hon. member for Kamloops to

page 2411 of Hansard of March 19, 1948 as an instance when a motion to instruct the committee to divide a bill had been debated. I now have the text and at page 2411 I find the following:

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Clarence Decatur Howe (Minister of Defence Production; Minister of Trade and Commerce)

Liberal

Mr. Howe:

In the debate on the resolution, Mr. Speaker, in response to a motion from the C.C.F. party that the bill be divided and the coarse grains section sent to a committee-

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Coldwell:

It did not come from the C.C.F.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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?

Percy Ellis Wright

Mr. Wright:

On a question of privilege-

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Clarence Decatur Howe (Minister of Defence Production; Minister of Trade and Commerce)

Liberal

Mr. Howe:

I am simply making a statement as I said I would at this time. I said that after the second reading of the bill, before the Speaker had left the chair, I would move to take the power in committee to divide the bill in order to report one section and to send another section to a committee.

The purpose of that offer was to expedite the passage of the bill. I might point out that some eight days have elapsed since then, and every section of the bill has been thoroughly debated. The objective of saving time has not been achieved, and I see no purpose at the moment in putting this motion. However, having said I would do so I am willing to move it, but it is obvious, I think, that the motion will be voted down.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

George Henry Ross

Liberal

Mr. Ross (Souris) :

The minister distinctly made the statement that he would adopt this procedure to divide the bill and refer section 5 to the agriculture committee.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Clarence Decatur Howe (Minister of Defence Production; Minister of Trade and Commerce)

Liberal

Mr. Howe:

I move, Mr. Speaker, that it be an instruction to the committee of the whole that they have power to divide Bill No. 135 into two bills, in order that one may deal separately with oats and barley.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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?

Some hon. Members:

No.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Mr. Howe moves, seconded by Mr. Gardiner-

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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?

Some hon. Members:

Oh, oh.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

-seconded by Mr. Mcllraith, that it be an instruction to the committee of the whole that they have power to divide Bill No. 135 into two bills, in order that one may deal separately with oats and barley.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

Pages 2207 to 2213 of that same volume of mine that you have in your hand.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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PC

Donald Methuen Fleming

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fleming:

The reference I gave was page 2210.

23. 1956 4269

Northern Ontario Pipe Line Corporation

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

I see that this volume belongs to the library.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

The library has it charged to me.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Liberal

Mr. Speaker:

Page 2207. I see now that the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre keeps a good note of all the motions he proposes. On that occasion, as appears at page 2207 of Hansard of March 15, 1948, he proceeded to propose a motion and he said this:

The procedure I wish to follow is identically the same as that which the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe) told us the other day it was his intention to follow with respect to Bill No. 135.

We have dealt with that matter. Then he gave all his authorities supporting the move he was proposing. It is true that his measure had to do with the Transitional Measures Act. I can see that he spoke at quite some length. However, I think he will agree with me that he was not so much debating the merits of the motion itself as the authorities supporting him in what he was doing. I note that at page 2208 he points out the citations in Beauchesne, Bourinot and May with respect to the differences between permissive and mandatory instructions. Then Mr. Smith, the then hon. member for Calgary West, asked a question and Mr. Knowles answered. Then Mr. W. Garfield Case spoke for about three paragraphs, then Mr. Ilsley and then Mr. Smith again.

What strikes me is this. Mr. Smith spoke three times. We can speak only once on a debatable motion.

Topic:   NORTHERN ONTARIO PIPE LINE CORPORATION
Subtopic:   CONSTITUTION OF CROWN COMPANY TO CONSTRUCT PIPE LINE, MAKE SHORT-TERM LOANS, ETC.
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May 23, 1956